Embracing Authenticity and Creativity with Marc Thiele

Welcome to Wake Up Excited! In this episode, I talk with Marc Thiele. Marc is the organizer of the Fantastic Beyond Tellerrand Conference that happens every year in Germany. I just got back from his event in Berlin, and I really feel like Beyond Tellerrand should be on every creative person's bucket list. The show is exceptional and balances practical knowledge with diverse creative inspiration. The curation, care craft, and effort that Marc puts into each show is so abundantly clear, and everyone has a great time as a result, marc's conference holds a special place in my heart because back in 2013, I introduced Atomic design to the world at Beyond Tellerrand, and Marc is one of the kindest, most authentic and sincere people I know, and it's real privilege to call him a friend. In our conversation, Marc and I talk about the hard work behind creative projects, intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, embracing vulnerability and sincerity, continuing to cultivate joy and satisfaction, even for long running creative endeavors. The value of community and relationships, learning from failure and a whole lot more. Before we begin, I wanna remind you that Wake up excited is a real labor of love and is entirely self-funded. bradfrost.com/courses I'm acting as my own advertiser here, so if you'd like to support the show, I'd love it if you checked out our online courses. We now have three courses Subatomic, the Complete Guide to Design Tokens, an Atomic Design Certification course, and a brand new course called AI and Design Systems. You could check all of those courses out at bradfrost.com/courses, and you could save 15% off the course price by using the code. WAKEUPEXCITED. All right. Without any further windup, here's my conversation with Marc Thiele.

Brad: Hey Marc.

Marc Thiele: Hello?

Brad: Thanks so much for joining me. I'm super excited to talk to you and I'm just gonna dig right into the first question, what has you waking up excited right now?

Marc Thiele: Well since I do run events, most of the time it's like the stuff that I need to do, the closer the events get. Uh, so the, uh, actual event is the one and this off, and therefore, like I wake up every morning right now going like, well, it's only. Next days. So right now it's 41 days until, uh, we open doors and, uh, now the final bits and pieces are usually the most fun because then ticket sales are go in and you, you work on all the little bits and pieces that make such an event unique and special for everybody coming.

Brad: Beautiful. So, so it's like you're waking up and you're just like, go mode, like straight into the work that you know you need to do, but do you feel like it's, it's exciting versus, uh, I, I must like, I guess there's the must and want. Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Thiele: like with all things, uh, true. Yeah. The, the fun things I'm talking about are the, the, the, the things that, uh, usually keep me doing this kind of stuff. Uh, and the must things that you were talking about are those that need to be done in order to run such events, like collecting money from sponsors. speaking on social media to get the word out about the event, uh, which used to be fun as well, but right now it is not anymore. 'cause like everything is like so fragmented and, difficult with all the algorithms that you need to serve in order to get seen. Uh, So these are the things that are a bit hard and mature these days. Um,

Brad: yeah. Melissa. Read a book when, I'm gonna have to hunt this down 'cause I feel like I've, I've really internalized it. But she read this book that said every job has a shit sandwich that you have no choice but to just. Pick it up with both hands and just,

Marc Thiele: Yeah,

Brad: take a bite.

Marc Thiele: exactly.

Brad: you, you have no choice. And like that's true for Beyonce. That's true for like anyone that you think like just has this magnificent life. Like they all have their versions of having to, to do this dance and, and do these just kind of chores or things that aren't exactly part of the passion of, of what you do for, for work.

Marc Thiele: The, the, the problem that we have here is, um, that we. These days are very good in like trying to fool ourselves that everything we see on Instagram, all those shiny bits are the only things that matter and that are the only things that exist for stuff like this, right? But it's not true is. We all know. Um, it's never just like sunshine and honey and, uh, it's, it's also like the bitter stuff that you have to do and the dark sides and the dark moments you have at home, planning your stuff and like cons, constantly asking and questioning yourself about things you do. imposter syndrome is one, one key word, right? So like when, when you go like, well, I just, I just run this bloody event of why is it like special for anyone, you know? yeah. I just had a conversation with a good friend. Uh, you mu you must know him as well. Uh, Basian aga from, uh, who runs Kirby and he's just, just

Brad: Oh yeah.

Marc Thiele: he was like, whenever I prepare a talk about stuff I do, like, and people ask me to give a talk about, like Kirby, in this case, his CMSI, I feel nothing, but like, who the fuck is interested in this, right? And it's the same for me. Uh, uh, like someone ask like, what would you mind like telling us a bit about like how you got to run your events and what's the, what's the driving force behind it? Uh, give a, give a one hour talk about it. I go like, really? Is anyone out there that is really interested in this stuff?

Brad: but what's funny is, so, so he's asking you

Marc Thiele: Yeah.

Brad: about this and, and what, what do you tell him? Like what, like how do you respond? You're like.

Marc Thiele: I, I, I told him like a, a, uh, I tend to do the same ex, uh, uh, the exact same I have to say. So I, I, I told him, well, hold in, take a breath and look back what you achieved. Like you, you managed with the stuff that you do, you managed to, uh, have a family and you, you earn enough money to feed the family in, in a teamwork with your, with your wife. Of course, you, you got a house that you like paid off because of that, you, you achieve many things. Like so many u people, uh, use your, your tools and, and your stuff, and they, they run their website on your, based on your stuff, right? So, um, well, if that's nothing I, I, I, I mean that's great. And you were like, wow, I

Brad: Right.

Marc Thiele: I feel better. And it's, it's, it's, it's sometimes needs, like any someone else to, to, to tell you.

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: kind of things because, you know, as we tend to work from home more and more and from our own offices like I do, right? Like from here, there's no one just my family who sees me every day. Um, you could, that you can ask for advice. It's, it's,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: need to, you need to go out and go like, well, what do you think about the stuff I do? Is it really important for anyone? And oftentimes

Brad: Yeah,

Marc Thiele: yes, it is for many people, it matters for many people. And that's like the stuff that you need in order to get this kind of excitement in the morning that you were asking about.

Brad: I, I think that that's right. There's, there's the dynamic of it. You touched on a couple things. There's the dynamic of working from home, especially whenever you're alone, and that if left unchecked, you just are in your head and anything, your own self-doubt or your own kinda, I'm not sure that's why. We are a social species, you know, so we need to, to, to go outward and, and communicate that stuff, get that validation or get that, that sort of mere held up to us by often someone who's, who's more charitable than our own negative self thoughts, right? So, so that's such an important thing. But it also, you're touching on other things where the media landscape right now and social media landscape especially, there's not a lot of room for vulnerability of, man, I'm really struggling with this, or I'm really, um, I'd really welcome some feedback. I'm not really feeling. Confident in this thing or, or whatever that is. Whenever all it is is is breathless hyperbole and, and highlight reels and all of that has just been sort of swept up and, and kicked up into this just really fervent and gross kind of hype machine. I guess there's not a lot of room for that real and authentic vulnerability or to have like real connections where you're able to kind of do that, uh, person to person worked of validating each other and building ideas and having like real conversations. Like at one point in time there was a moment where we could actually do that there, where it felt like the, the terrain was less noisy Yeah.

Marc Thiele: from now you go, let's say like 10, maybe 15 years backwards when forums still were like a big thing. lift off those people asking like, well, here's a question I have no answer to. Can anyone help me? Blah, blah, blah. So, and that, and that's,

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: everybody like, was so happy to help. And, um, that showed a lot of like, courage to say, I don't know this, can anyone help me? But it was so,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: fantastic. I, I love the I, uh, idea for that, like the, the way forums work back then.

Brad: And it's still there. Like, that's, that's the thing. Obviously the tools like forum software still exists, but even the affordances of social media and all of that, it's all still there. And that's I think something that's interesting that I don't know if you share, having been in this world for as long as you have it's like several decades of like working in and around the web. It's like, man, those ideals,

Marc Thiele: Mm-hmm.

Brad: uh, have definitely taken a back seat, but I refuse to accept that they are dead, uh, like they're still there. The opportunity to have healthier conversations, to really connect, to unlock a lot of our collective potential is all still there. It's just dormant. It just been kind of pushed way back to the back burner because everything else has kind of crowded the space and it's just gotten too noisy.

Marc Thiele: Yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, I mean, it, sometimes it needs a few people. Uh, I can't remember the name actually right now, but like on Instagram, that's a few accounts that play with exactly this, that, that, that go like beyond this kind of like, um, everything needs to be shiny, smiley, and, and, and, and like, absolutely glorious looking, you know, uh,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: I think. Uh, of us look shit, at least I do, but certainly, especially the older I get, right? You wake up and you go

Brad: Right.

Marc Thiele: is that me in the mirror over there? Really? Um, I'd love to like see more photos like this though. Like, this is me in the morning,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: it is this kind of

Brad: I.

Marc Thiele: The anxiety to fail in a way is like, if you fail, you are, you're not good or you're not worthy enough. Um, and that, and that's, that's totally not true, especially in Germany, we tend to do this a lot. 'cause in, in, in the US at least, there's like, in terms of business wise, it's, it's great to fail. If you fail with a startup, you just stand up and build your next startup. In Germany, it's like a totally no go. If you fail, that's a, you,

Brad: Interesting.

Marc Thiele: you lost it. You are, you are down. You, you're done. and that's like, it's a different culture, uh, in terms of this, uh, over here. But I wish, at least in, in terms of the kind, attitude towards yourself and the stuff you do and, uh, valuing in the stuff that you yourself do, you be more proud of things, uh, except more people saying that. If you, if, if someone says like, well, you've done great there, you, we often tend to say, well, yeah, but why not just

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: and embracing it and going like. Well,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: know what? You are absolutely right. I've done great here. Thank you.

Brad: Yeah. There's a big difference between pride and pride. Like there's, there's, there's kind of boastful pride. There's this kind of like superficial artificial or braggadocio, and then there's just a, a general acceptance that it's okay to be proud of things that you work really hard on success or fail. Maybe you work on something that doesn't land or isn't a big smash hit or the extrinsic motivators or feedback loops maybe don't show up all the time. And I know that you deal with this, like, because you've had to deal with this really uneven world where the shows that you put together. Are stellar through and through because you put all of this care and craft and thought into them. But like the landscape through no fault of your own, doesn't give you that feedback loop every single time. Right. Just because the world is hard and complicated. We've had pandemics where there's like been like a lot of like disruption, right? So, so there's that trap of relying on the extrinsic feedback loops of this many people said this many nice things about my thing. Therefore I could feel good about it. as time goes on, I've felt I care less and less and less about what other people think and I know how I am doing based on how I feel about what I'm doing and how I'm doing it. If I feel like it's a, pure expression of what I want to be putting into the world, that that's enough, I don't care if, if nobody watches the video that I put out, or if two people did, or, or 2000 people, uh, I don't know. it's a challenge and, yeah.

Marc Thiele: And for anything you put out there, and may it be music or videos or podcast or blog posts. That's true. That's easy. Well, not easy to do, but it's easier to achieve and to remind yourself to do so. Um, it's different with, uh, work where not only you rely on and you, you need to make money in order to pay the bills. Not just the bills that I need to pay for me and my family, but also the bills of the venue, the flights, uh, the, the speaker cost for the hotels, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: like,

Brad: Yep, yep.

Marc Thiele: If that wouldn't be there, like, or the cost of it, that would be nice. 'cause then I could focus on the, on the good things. On the, the, the things

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: right. That are enjoyable. Um,

Brad: there's this notion of, it's like you need to like get that stuff out of the way. That's, that's your, just like baseline

Marc Thiele: yeah.

Brad: that allows you to just kind of breathe easier and then everything else is, is gravy from there.

Marc Thiele: Totally. you need to do a few, uh, specific check Marcs for each of those, uh, uh, events, which might be the sandwich that they were talking about earlier. Uh, the one that doesn't taste good, but as soon as they are done, uh, you're much more relaxed and relieved, uh, that you are able to now focus on the, the enjoyable thing and to make, uh, everything, nice and, and, and, and round for the people coming.

Brad: Yeah. Could you, could you say more about that? Like, like what is the enjoyable part of, of what you do?

Marc Thiele: the, the biggest joy is really, for me, the moment when I see Toby, the guy who is doing the music on my stage. Uh, starting to play, and I know, okay, now from now on, it's like maximum 10 minutes and I, I'm on stage and say hello to everybody. And you, you are like backstage with this excitement and behind the curtain, right? You're just waiting for it. Like, and, and, and then, and it grows and grows to a point where I sometimes start crying and uh, uh, I just stand there. I don't need to like, but it's happy crying, right? It's not like. Any like stressful crying, oh, we need to go on stage or anything, but it's, it is this kind of relief that you have got that all the stuff you plant until this point is now actually showing like the result you, you are now picking the fruit of what you've done for the last couple of months.

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: one moment

Brad: I.

Marc Thiele: I had to change venues in uh, 20 for 2019 and 2018. My old Berlin venue that you visited back then also they closed and so I had to find a new one and that was quite stressful. And I had put a lot of effort in on checking venues to find the right one in terms of like the exhibition space, right size. And I checked between 30 and 40 venues in Berlin. And I remember the morning of, of the kickoff of the 2019 event in Berlin in the new venue. I really like the tears bursting down when I, I, I was behind the stage and then, uh, Jeremy, who was supposed to be first speaker, Jeremy Keith, he just seen me, uh, how I like started crying and he just came to me and gave me the biggest hug and like, like, yeah, like, and didn't say any words, but like, he shook, he shook me a little bit, right? And he went like,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: on, we are doing it. And it was like such a fantastic memorable, a moment. Uh, and that's what I mean, it's kind of like, it oftentimes doesn't need words. It's just like this kind of like. Ah, moment where, where, and it's fantastic. And you, you go on stage and then people cheer and, and, and applaud you and, they are full of excitement for the next couple of days and they, they want to know what's happening now, right? So this is fantastic. It's, it's

Brad: Uh.

Marc Thiele: that really energizes me and, and keeps me going and keep, keeps me doing this kind of kind of stuff. Sometimes I need to remind myself of some of those moments in order to get stuff done that I don't like to that, that I don't like to

Brad: Yeah, that's how it goes, right? Like that's how it goes in, in all aspects of life. Is, is that not every moment is, is bliss, is transcendence, is is this surreal out of body experience or this super emotional experience. It, but it's those moments, it's those peak experiences that carry us through the rest of our time. Uh, whether it's the shit sandwich that we've been talking about that's related to that, that, that builds towards those peak moments. Or it's just the, the kind of unrelated stuff. the going through life. it's having these moments, these experiences, these reminders where there is this end of the spectrum. That is, is some of the most beautiful stuff that life is made of. And realizing that that stuff is, is precious and finite But to know that, that in those moments when you feel you're, you're most alive, that's going to carry you through

Marc Thiele: yeah.

Brad: all the other times where, where you're somewhere else on that spectrum.

Marc Thiele: But it's an exercise to, to being able to remind you of those, uh, shiny and good, good moments.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: as humans, I generalize here, but we tend to have the negative, with more weight than the positive, right? And we shouldn't do

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: Um, I remember that, uh, one year in the early years of, of the event when my wife said to me, how do you cope with like, negative feedback that you get sometimes? Um, 'cause you, we all know this kind of like a hundred people feedback. And then there's the one person saying like, oh, I don't like your shirt. And you go like. damnit, everybody was nice, but that person does like my shirt.

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: well there have been 99 other people that said good things or at least know nothing negative, so, and that's great already. Right?

Brad: yep,

Marc Thiele: we,

Brad: yep.

Marc Thiele: to work on this kinda attitude

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: away, let, let, let's count the, the positive way more than the negative. 'cause that pushes us forward. That's the stuff that keeps you swimming up, up on the water and on the ground, right?

Brad: Yeah. Uh, a hundred percent. it's that again, that, that extrinsic feedback is, is great. And, and when you receive positive feedback, those are good signals and it's not, it's certainly not to suggest we need to ignore them, but it's like

Marc Thiele: no,

Brad: the more. The more like intrinsically satisfied you are with a job well done, for anything you apply yourself to, means that that positive stuff is the cherry on the top, but isn't isn't necessarily like the, you're relying on it so much. Right? And it, and it also just makes that, if you know internally how you feel and you're not second guessing your, your own abilities or your own effort and, and all of that stuff. The person that doesn't like your short, you could just kind of laugh it off a little bit more because you know, you know in your soul that you did a good job that you, that you've been doing a good job. And it's, it's that, I think that there is like a preoccupation for a lot of people, whether it's pre, we see it a lot professionally where there's. a real lack of confidence whenever people are presenting their work, whenever people are, are making things and they, they hold it up to the group and it's like, please don't hurt me. Like, here's what I'm thinking. And it's like, no, dude. Like you gotta commit. believe in this stuff and, and have a perspective. And people value that, even if they disagree with you. People know when people are going out there and they're like, ah, yes, this person has done the thoughtful work of putting this together. They have, considered these things. And even if I disagree with them, I appreciate their, their perspective and, and ability to, present their truth. Right. And that's, that's, I think like one of the best things about groups of people working together on something is that you are able to explore that together. And when we have that happening, successfully, it's really fun because what you see is a bunch of people showing up with their respective truths and they're able to do something really interesting with that because they are trusting that the other people are showing up in an authentic way. It's whenever there's that again, that, that hyper awareness or, or over focus on the other people and their reaction to it. And they're, they're either trying to impress too much or they're trying to, to hedge or they're trying to do whatever. And, and I'm not suggesting like you go out there and be like a brazen asshole and say like, this is the. Best gift to the world. Thank you. Thank you. That was perfect. That was perfect. Well, well timed computer. there's really something to, I think that that authenticity and, and that, not over dialing on the extrinsic motivators,

Marc Thiele: do, do you know of any kind of like exercises or anything where you can think of where people could learn or like exercise this in order to get more confidence in their own work? Or, uh, is it just like well go out and show your work more often to like, to stand in for it to learn about like how you receive feedback and how you read the feedback you receive

Brad: that's a good question. I mean, I think so much of it has to do with, with practice, but also just kind of an intentionality to it all. And, and, and it's not just like in, in the, the workplace. It's like, I mean, you know this like going to your kids' events, right? Every interaction. Like, I, I feel this more and more as, as Ella gets a little older and I'm like, find myself in mixed company and other parents and stuff like that. And, and you've been at this for, for longer than I have. But it's like all of those moments, right, are opportunities to, I don't wanna say practice this stuff, but it's like there are opportunities to show up and rather than conform to the. Who, the space or, or what's considered to be, uh, polite or, or let's just talk about the weather and, and not go any deeper, make any deeper connections. Like I find myself kind of in those moments looking for excuses to challenge that stuff. And, and so, so I don't know if there's a, I'm sure that there are formal exercises and, and lots of like self-help books about building your confidence. But, but I think that, like, one thing that I'll, I'll say that has been helpful for me use pretty much every interaction as an opportunity to just be like, how do I wanna show up

Marc Thiele: Mm-hmm.

Brad: and Pres present myself and. connect with another person and, and be curious about their life and go beyond just talking about the weather, but really kind of use these moments as opportunities to, to dig a little deeper and, and be true to yourself, I guess. Right? It's like, 'cause no matter where you go, there you are, whether you're going to the grocery store or whether you're at, at a soccer game or whether you're at, uh, you know, your work or whatever. So those are all, you're, you're carrying yourself, your mind, and your body with you wherever you go. And so every environment change, every conversation, every interaction is an opportunity to like apply yourself and, and show up as yourself and, and you could cultivate an awareness of that. I don't, I don't know how one goes about that necessarily, but like, that's, that's kind of where I. Have landed how have you thought about that? Or do you think about that and, and how do you like, show up and engage in, in those like just kinda regular life things creative conferences?

Marc Thiele: the longer the, the longer you experience this kind of stuff, the, the more you, you get used to it and the more you are trained in a way, right? Like, so, uh, and oftentimes it, now, now is that I, try to imagine a situation that's gonna happen if I know I'm going to a certain, uh, event of my kids and then I, I'm prepared and I, I just play with it these days. Actually, I, I sometimes actually really play with it and go like, oh, okay, this way. I en I enjoy, I actually embrace this kind of moments, uh, where the typical question would be sometimes, oh, oh, you've got long hair, you matter, right? Matter, huh? And you go like, well, yes, but not, not just so it's, but it's like it's, people need their drawers. They need this kind of boxes they put you into and then 'cause they want to categorize you, right? Like, they were like, oh dude, long hair. Bit of a, a, a, how do you say? Like hippie, like, uh, a look and feel. Oh, must be metal, I guess. So they put you in

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: box. It's so hard to get out there. I had it all my life. 'cause I have long hair since I'm 14 or 15. So,

Brad: Amazing.

Marc Thiele: get, you get used to this kind of stuff and oftentimes it's now my, my task and my, my playful, uh, thing that I want to get out of this box. Okay, this person that put has put me in this box. How can I, how can I get out of there? And then you start the conversation and, uh, you find out like, okay, you need to pull these and that, this and that trigger with this person and the button. Push this button. And now we get that. And they go like, well, oh, you also listen to funk. Really? I didn't, I didn't think of that. Hmm. that,

Brad: Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Thiele: same with, uh, with, uh, your business life. Uh, I, when I was doing like freelancing stuff still, uh, next to the events I used to run, uh, in the early 20, uh, in the early two thousands. the first couple of meetings I had with people were quite exhausting because I, I came in and they were like, Hmm, not that typical professional, right? So you have got this meeting in front of like, sometimes four people, sometimes more, and they were, they

Brad: Sure.

Marc Thiele: for you to, to, uh, to give the pitch. And you were like, Hmm, okay. You sat down oftentimes it went from who's this long-haired dude something when they went like, Hmm. Does he have any. expertise oh, this guy is creative and this long hair dude. Right? So he's not just creative with like creative, creative

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: stuff, but he knows his stuff about like technology things as well. quickly you became not just like this long hair dude who showed up there and who seemed not, seems to be very professional. 'cause I didn't show up in a, in a suit. I didn't never own one, really. so I always came as, as I am and I thought like, the people wanna hire me for the stuff I do. And I create, and not for the person I, I I I look like, or I, I pre pretend, pretend to be, as much, uh, uh, as I might have, uh, cost something to not get a job with this because people sometimes don't tell you. Uh, I think the, the majority of of stuff I, I I, I pitched for, I got it. And, uh, oftentimes in, in a way that people were. Totally turned around by, by 180 degrees after such a conversation we had. Right? 'cause they were like, oh, super, super surprised. This guy can actually talk and this guy knows his

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: You know? Um, and it's quite fun to, to explore and to play with. Uh, but of course, in the, in the, in the first couple of years, I, I got free, uh, I went freelance in 1999, so therefore, the early years were quite challenging. And I, I, I, I'm very lucky that I had a few people that were taking me on, on their hand and, and supporting me. Like, listen, next time you should do this and that. And then I, I, I, I felt like, oh, okay, learn this here and there. But I never, I never, and I'm, uh, knocking on wood here 'cause I think a lot of people have to, but I never had to pretend to be someone else. I always came as I,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: as who I am. Um,

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: never had to fake it

Brad: and I think that that's beautiful because like, what I think that what you're describing is, is one, you are, you're challenging people's assumptions and forcing them to reconcile in their own heads with those assumptions. And I think that that's really great too. Yeah. It's like. If you're able to transcend boxes and you don't fit into those, like you kind of short circuit the, the default mode network of, of, you look at a person, they take a shortcut, long hair, metal guy got it done, one dimensional kind of, you know, understanding and, and, and they take that shortcut. And if you don't play with it, if you don't lean into it, then, then that's what they're going to walk away with. But, so there's an opportunity, and I I'm hearing you say this, that it's like you're like leaning in to help kind of guide them, not not so much to, to better understand you, but it's it, or, or it is that, to, to help them better understand you. But it, it's also sounds like there's, you're doing this work to like help them understand their own w ring a little bit better. Which, which is awesome.

Marc Thiele: yeah, to question. To

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: Right. To go like, oh, I assume something wrong here? Hmm. Right. So it's

Brad: Right. And then what's also interesting, and, and I love this, uh, it's like this is, I think that's something that why we've connected so well over so many years is that, you know, you just showing up as yourself. And I think that that is something that, that people really appreciate about you as well as, you know, I see it with, you know, my own interactions with people, but a lot of the people that I'm talking about, uh, talking with on, on the show and beyond, it's the people who are their auth authentic selves. And there's an opportunity to. Use just the way you go about your business, the way you live your life in, in a way that's true, that can really inspire other people to do it. I'm sure that you've had people that are like, oh, like how do I, how do I do what you do? Or, or, you know, things like that. It's like, it is, you see it and you know, you're like, well, you're not going to be me. Uh, you're going to be you. But, but what you're able to do is model your authentic self and, and hold that up and, and move through life and engage with the world as your authentic self.

Marc Thiele: Yep.

Brad: And what that allows other people to do, hopefully, is to be able to give themselves permission to relax a bit and, and be more their, their own selves and, and get themselves out of their own boxes that they've put themselves in.

Marc Thiele: Mm-hmm. True. Yeah. I mean, uh, I, I hope that with the kind of stuff you do, um, I mean, lots of people do good stuff, uh, as we, like you and I and other people that we

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: um, that we, it's, it's a big word, but like, kind of being a role model for, for other people without

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: to be, like, without putting myself out as, as, as a role model and saying like, well, look, if you do stuff like I do, then you will be successful. 'cause that's not true. That's definitely not true. Um, so a lot of, a lot of things that have to play together, uh, in, in order to achieve what you want to achieve. And, um, I think my, my, my key to, uh, recognize some of the things that have done good is like that I am from time to time. Sitting down and reflect on the last couple of month, years, a certain amount of time to look what ha what have I done? Was it good? Was it bad? Is it what I wanna do still, uh, this kind of, this reflecting moments,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: I think that that helps to then look also into the future to think about what do I need or want to change? And is it to change myself or the stuff that I would do, uh, towards, uh, something in order to achieve what I want to achieve? Or is it like something I don't wanna play with anymore? Right? And that's, that's sometimes the kind of stuff that I ask myself. And, and again, I just can speak about the events I run where I, I go like, well, is the, is it, just like the bitter and sour sandwiches I have to eat? Or is there still some good tasting ones in, you know, in between of that?

Brad: Sure. and that's an important skill to develop as well, is, is that level of, of self-reflection and, and self-awareness and realizing that Yeah. The, the landscape and the things that you've put together close to two decades ago. It's not the same world, it's not the same landscape. You're, you're in a, you're in a different phase of life. everything has changed. And so you must confront that. when, when people get too precious about trying to hang on to something in the past, they do a disservice to themselves because there are many opportunities in the present and in the future that we tend to, like if we, if we're holding on tight too, too tightly too things, uh, in the past that, that we can't. We can't let it go. And that, and that's where you get into these things where you're like, oh, no, I, I overstayed my welcome here. Or I, I should have been doing this other thing. And I haven't, because I've been hoping that that other thing was going to come back. And it's, and it's clear now that it's, that it's not right.

Marc Thiele: oh yeah, it, it is hard and, and it sometimes, uh, especially if you, if you then, which I, I didn't have, have to up to now, uh, realize, oh, it's better to stop something than to keep going 'cause it's, it's, it's not fulfilling anymore or it's not enjoyable anymore. Or for whatever reason you decide to stop something, stopping things that you used to enjoy. I think that's a really, really tough job. Um, but sometimes the right thing to

Brad: Hmm.

Marc Thiele: and, and, and the consequence of, of. again, looking back and, and evaluating what have I done? How is it now? Uh, how might it be in the future? and sometimes maybe you don't need to completely stop any, uh, something, but you might want to it for a while and then scale it down again, right. And go, okay. I start smaller again and see if I find the joy that I had again.

Brad: I think that that's beautiful and I think that's, that's really well said in that it is hard work to do that because when we do things in a certain season of life or whatever, and this is the thing that's, that's getting you, you know, waking up excited and in that moment in time, to assume that that's a forever thing is, is of course, you know, a dangerous assumption. Right. And, and again, there's that, that kind of hope that we, we hope. We, we can rekindle that and, and maybe we can, and a lot of it, it is worth that hard work of evaluating like, what, what about it, what about it is not turning me on anymore? Or why, why am I not jumping outta bed excited about sinking my teeth into these things? And maybe it's just that your passions and enthusiasms have, have shifted and changed. Or maybe it's that shit sandwich has has, um, there, there's too much of it. Or, or it's, it's kind of taken on. And all of those are great things to become aware of as well, because you could be like, oh, well if I were to carve out these things or delegate these things, or somehow like reduce these things, then ah, yes, there it is. Right? I you're just, it's that, that honing. It's That constant self-evaluation of it's like, are these things serving me? are they exciting? Are, is it just wrapped in a bunch of other stuff that if can I chip away at that extra stuff and, and get closer to the essence and, and that's the happy place. I don't know. It's, it's, but, but, but I love how you said it. It's, it's hard work to do that. The truth is so much more complicated than that.

Marc Thiele: Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's again, uh, uh, coming back to the, the, the, the stuff we were talking about earlier, uh, social media. It's also playing into this, I call it new attitude of just having black or white to decide for, or black or white to, uh, um, to, um, if you, if if there's a decision, as you just said, it's not just yes or no all the time, right? Sometimes it, it's like, yes, but, and then you have to look into like, it's a yes, but, and then, uh, the, the stuff that tends towards the no, what is it and why? Why is it there and how can I maybe get rid of it or change it or have someone else taken over the, the bits that make me say, no, I don't want it anymore. Maybe that's a person that

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: and, uh, uh, can and does this with joy, right? Like the stuff that you don't want to do. and then you, you hire someone. You, you write that does your bookkeeping or your social media

Brad: Yep,

Marc Thiele: or whatever it's, it's again, it's like, uh, sometimes I sit here at my desk, uh, uh, and I'm, I'm, kind of worrying about stuff and I don't know, I have this kind of like, questions that, that come up. And it's more this kind of moody moments where, where you sit here and go like, ah, is it all worth it anymore? And Nah, nah. you have this for like three days in a row and you think, ah, you know what? I, I, I simply, I simply stop it because it's, uh, it's so exhausting and it's eating me up. And then there's the, the one light moment again where you meet someone in. Dusel off not far from here at this like, creative morning. And they're like, you know what I, what I always wanted to say, you, you brought so much life, uh, light to my life last year when you did this one talk, blah, blah. And you invited, and then all of a sudden these, like three last days where you were to shits here, right? And went like, oh fuck. I don't like to do what? You, you go like, well, okay, that's the answer, right? So, it's just like, uh, uh, uh, tab that I still have open, which is quite old already now. Uh, it's from June 24 and, uh, there's, uh, someone who's written it, And it's titled things that Make me Happy, that for some reason caught my attention and it's still open. 'cause uh, you know, every time I go like, oh, okay. that make me happy, and then you, you write down two, three or four things that make you happy, and all of a sudden life is way better than it used to be just five minutes ago. Yeah. It's not always

Brad: It's a, it's funny how no, it, it, it isn't. But, but those reminders, and that's why Yeah. Things like, you know, cultivating gratitude via journaling or whatever other reminders that you can literally thrust. In front of your eyeballs and, and keep that in your consciousness. It, it absolutely guides and can inform and influence and, and change your mood immediately if you need a pick me up. But it also reminds you of, of why you do anything, that's the reason why we put pictures of our family on our desk, that is why you continue to show up to do the things that you do.

Marc Thiele: Yeah.

Brad: And I do think that we, through COVID have had that short circuiting. I. Of those reminders and that we are collectively having to slowly rebuild that stuff. Which is why I think events like yours, creative events where you, you are giving people a, a macro dose of a reminder of, these different ways of being, different ways of thinking, different ways, challenging your assumptions and your, your normal and, and ripping, ripping people out of that normal. People need that very much. And I think especially in this moment in time, there's a really strong current that doesn't feel healthy. Right.

Marc Thiele: Absolutely.

Brad: One of the, the, the themes that's like starting to emerge at through these conversations like the people who are able to connect with that joy, connect with creativity, connect with the positivity, and understand the, the importance of, of community and getting people together and, you know, presenting ideas and do, and doing all these things to, you know, the, the activities that we tend to do. you're up here and you're able to pull so many other people up to that place. It's like, that's magic.

Marc Thiele: yeah,

Brad: a real gift.

Marc Thiele: it is, it is. And, uh, uh, you know, just in my case, but in anyone's case who might like, listen or watch this, this stuff here, you only experience this kind of stuff or you only have a chance to experience this kind of stuff for yourself if you go out and speak to other people? If you constantly sit behind your

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: maybe even have a one-to-one conversation to someone in, in a behind a monitor, it's not the same. You need to go out, you need to talk about yourself, you need to listen about what other people do. Like this, it's called exchange in conversation. Right? So, and,

Brad: yeah. Yeah.

Marc Thiele: and nothing replaces, not really, nothing replaces this. Um, you, we maybe not everybody, but I, I would say most of us need this kind of stuff. They need this kind of exchange and listen to others, people and to talk about themselves I don't know, like as kind of a therapy maybe. let's call it therapy. I don't know. What is therapy. it helps me, I enjoy it a lot. And it, no matter if you're introvert or not, I mean, um, I.

Brad: Yes.

Marc Thiele: If you are an introvert, I, I guess it needs, it needs different events sometimes than, than most of the, the big events that, that, that are out there. But there are, I promise you, there are events who are for you as well, if you're an introvert, um, who do their best

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: to create a space that where you, in which you feel welcome as well, and, and you feel safe and, and, and, and good.

Brad: a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And it's like, and it, and it can be just that going out and, getting dinner with a friend. And, I, it, it feels like that, that rebuilding of those muscles, um, kind of post covid, it's like we, we were in it long enough where we, we adjusted to being, uh, holding ourselves up. And, and that has provided us a certain level of comfort and convenience in certain ways, but it also means that we're not, we continue to not be out in the world as much as we were kind of pre covid. And so it is, it's like, it's a, it's a. It's kind of a bit of a challenge for introverts and extroverts alike. we, we have to, to kind of push ourselves. It's like if, if you're on the fence, if you find yourself, like the next time you're like, ah, should I go to this concert? Or should I go to this thing? Or do your best to just, to be like, yes, yes, I'm gonna do this. 'cause you're, you're going to come away from that experience more connected to another person. You're going to have a novel experience. You're going to hear music that you didn't hear before. You're going to eat food that you wouldn't otherwise have eaten. And

Marc Thiele: totally. And, and especially as there is no one else doing the work for you. It's only you, you can, you, you can do the work, right? You're the only person that is in charge here. Well, your family can lift you up and, and support you, right? Your wife

Brad: Yes.

Marc Thiele: great decision. Go for it. the initial spark, the initial moment needs to come from yourself. Go like, well, I need to get my

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: to get to that party. Uh, and, uh, you know? Yeah. And of course there might be people where you go like, oh, I didn't need that person right now, or, you know, this kind of stuff, but, well, that, that's, that's life, right? It's not,

Brad: That's life. And, and those are also lessons. Those are also lessons. Like I, I have a few friends that I've, um, kind of like been out with in like recent years and, and I've learned that it's like they're not the people. It'll be like two and a half hours or three hours into our time together that they'll be like, anyways, how are you doing? And, and it's like, what I've learned to appreciate is this like. I could just be like, well, I'm not gonna see that friend anymore because that, you know, it's just fully one sided, but it's like really realizing, oh, like they, they really needed, uh, to unload in this moment and that, and that's okay. But also it's maybe okay for me to just kind of go into these situations knowing that I'm not gonna be sharing a lot of what's going on in my life but it's, it's that lived experience that is going to teach you things good, bad, and ugly, One thing I wanna talk to you about, that I think is really fascinating with you, specifically having curated so many of these creative events. One thing that I'm really curious about is you've, you've now had this just assembly line of really interesting and creative people funnel through channel, through your, your door. You, you talk to them, you build relationships with them. And, you are especially unique in that you have seen so many facets of creativity. Have you found common denominators or common attributes that cut across mediums, that cut across, like personality types that cut across like whatever? Are there, a unified theory of creativity or, or do you have like a definition of creativity, like based on the, hundreds, hundreds, if not thousands of, of speakers that you've kind of pulled into your orbit and, and had speak on your stage?

Marc Thiele: No, I mean, the creativity is like a ru a really, wide, expression, right? So you be creative with like so many things and you can be creative in finding a solution for a certain problem. You can be creative with your pen on paper. You can be creative with your code. And, you know, creativity is like, is borderless. There's no, like, no nothing that really describes creativity. always matters towards what you define creativity in order to say like, if someone is creative, right? Musically, artistically, um, code wise, whatever. I think

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: always, what, what uh, has driven me To find creative people in whatever that means is my curiosity. And that that is

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: lets me find creative people. 'cause I think sometimes, oh, that's a creative approach to, again, solve a problem that someone had, or that's a creative way of a person that, uh, uh, NAZA, JPL uh, choose to spend their spare time, right? 'cause there was a talk about this actually, what they do and their don't, well, you know, this, this kind of stuff. And, and again, it's like my curiosity, sometimes maybe still childish curiosity where I would

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: as being a kid yes, we play, we play soccer here, there's a

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: and you go like, Ooh, and you are away from the ball, right? The ball. What's the, this kind of stuff. So we, that's, that's, that's the kind of stuff that drives me and that where I think that, hey, creativity is. For me, not something you put in a, in a certain box and go like, okay, you, this is creativity. think

Brad: Yes.

Marc Thiele: comes always with a The thing, the task, uh, that needs to be described as why is that creative is because that person is doing this and that, or because of the solution that someone found was very creative. and

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: that, that's my kind of definition. So that's why I think, uh, um, the, the kind of beyond tolerant idea that I've got with my, my, with my event is mainly about creativity. Right. And and again, then that doesn't matter if it's someone about web performance. 'cause that's creative as well. Right? Finding solutions.

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: Or about like how they draw, uh, postcards for, uh, to, annoy other people or like, it doesn't matter

Brad: Mr. Bingo.

Marc Thiele: Yeah.

Brad: Love that guy. but I, but I love that. And, and, and through all these people, whether you're talking with a web performance engineer or an illustrator or a movie maker or a, a astrophysicist or, or someone who's working for nasa, it's, it's this like. Curiosity, novel thought process and, and trying to solve problems or, or express themselves in a way that is, that is unique.

Marc Thiele: Yes, absolutely. Uh, and, and that's why, it's sometimes it's so hard to sell what I do or what I, what I try to sell with my event. Uh, 'cause. you are, uh, leading a team or a boss of a company and someone comes and says, I want to go to this event, and it's very hard to describe what, what will you get out of that? Right? And

Brad: Yes.

Marc Thiele: it's, it's, it's quite soft in a way. But, uh, um,

Brad: Yes,

Marc Thiele: I always try to think of something that John, a good friend of mine once said when, when he said, like, what, what would those people pay for? Having their employees being energized and inspired after such an event and coming back

Brad: yes,

Marc Thiele: and going like, wow, that was great. No, let's do something. Right? So this kind of

Brad: yes.

Marc Thiele: uh, I think

Brad: Yes.

Marc Thiele: you can't pay that with money, really. Uh, uh, and, uh, that's my hope for the outcome of, of such an event like mine. Uh, not just talking about my event, but events like that, right, where you have not a certain specific topic that you. Learn about which, which is great. Those events exist and they have the right to exist and they're there for a reason. but I myself am interested in, in like a broader approach of why I run my events, um, which then brings the downside of having to describe what is it about what actually is beyond Teran, right? Because

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: what the fuck?

Brad: it's kind of back to that, that sort of shallow thinking of, again, just the, here's a longhaired guy, metal done checkbox or whatever. It's like, go to conference. What actionable thing are you going to like, take away for it? That's able to justify the, the, the price and it's like. the, the burden, uh, that, that is on you, but also for like a lot of, some of the, the things that I've historically been hired for is it's like, yeah, I can help you solve these, like, very specific problems, but like the main thing that we're doing is to energize and get people excited

Marc Thiele: Mm-hmm.

Brad: and, and to get them, give them a sense of, of momentum in, in this, this, that, that, that leaning forward. It's like, I, I, I kind of see it as like this, this slingshot, right? It's like, like people like us are able to like, kind of pull people out of, of their norm and then whenever they leave our orbit. We let go and, and hopefully, you know, that, that, that is going through that, that projects them forward in a way that they could have gotten there on their own, but they're going to get there a lot faster With your help.

Marc Thiele: E either, either this, right through stuff I organized for them and talks and, and the, the surrounding, but also about, uh, with where everything they, they might ex experience at such events talking about the hallway track, for example, meeting someone

Brad: Yeah,

Marc Thiele: coffee and all of a sudden there's the next project they never thought about, right? Because that, that person,

Brad: yeah,

Marc Thiele: same about this, what really let, let's, let's, let's, let's

Brad: yeah.

Marc Thiele: and then we, we chat and then all of a sudden you have this next project going on and um, that, that is quite fulfilling for you for the next couple of years, whatever. Right? yeah.

Brad: Or beyond. Or beyond.

Marc Thiele: yeah,

Brad: Right. And I think that, I think that that's, that's really important. I really admire your commitment to the relationships in your life and that you know that there are people that you care about, people that, that are interesting people that are, it's not transactional. Right. It's, it's, it's, it's far deeper than, than that. And I'm curious to sort of like get your take on that, especially as, again, you've had all of these people and to be able to. Create relationships with all of these people, maintain those relationships, reconnect and, and just, you know, 'cause obviously the winds blow in different directions, but whenever we get back together it's like, you know, picking up like where we left off and, and obviously like, I,

Marc Thiele: And

Brad: I would love that for, for everyone, but Yeah.

Marc Thiele: and surely with some people that's easier. And with some people it's a bit more work where work is not nothing negative I have to say. Um, but you know, in these days I have to say it is as easy as it never has been before. 'cause we have these machines in our pockets, right? That connect us

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: if we want. So as soon as I think of Chris Callier and I have his phone number still, I go and text him and go like, Hey dude, how are you doing? I just thought of you. Just wanna know if you're okay. What does it cost us? Nothing. A few

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: And that's

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: actually, honestly. And, uh, uh, what I really learned when my, my first brother in 20 20 13 died because I haven't visited him a lot beforehand. And when he died, I, I had all those that I called. Why didn't I, questions, why didn't I call him more often? Why didn't I visit him more often? could, he he could have done the same, right. But yeah, I, I was asking myself why didn't I, uh,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: why I thought to myself, whenever I think of a person these days, I take out my fucking phone and text them or write them an email or call them easy. Doesn't cost a penny just some time. And if the person doesn't answer, well, I, if they die, I couldn't ask myself why didn't I, sorry, but I, I

Brad: Yeah. No, no, no. That's it. That's that. Like that, that makes perfect sense. It's not really about reciprocating so much as it is your own. Desire to, to create and cultivate the, the connections in your life. And w what, you know, everybody, whoever's on the other end of that phone call is, is living their life and, you know, has their responsibilities and obligations and so, so it's, it's, but but just the, the, the bid, right? The, the, the connection, right? Like that, that, that just keeping the ball in the air. I do the exact same thing. I do the exact same thing and it's just like, I just see pictures like we, we have like those like, um, like a Google photo frame, but even just in front of me, I have like a little like stand and it just like kind of cycles through what's now decades worth of photos, which is amazing.

Marc Thiele: Yep.

Brad: And I, I just, I see. Photos. Sometimes they'll take a screenshot and just shoot off a text and, and, and that's it. And that's it. There's no, you know, no context, no. Like, Hey, do you wanna spend an hour together, or, you know, like it's, it's just that, that kind of connective tissue.

Marc Thiele: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is the same that I do. Um, I've always, the example, uh, I remember a, a moment when, when my friend John and Brenda and I had like, um, a drink in a, in a pub in New York at it wasn't an Irish pub, I think. Uh, but it wasn't very specific that we went there for a reason. We were just there and we had good conversations. And every time I passed that place, I, I then sent photo of this place to the two people and going like, great memories. How are you? This kind of, this kind of stuff, right? And it's,

Brad: That's it.

Marc Thiele: And how good is it? I mean, and honestly, I ask you how good is it if you, after maybe sometimes a year or maybe even longer, you write someone and a person comes back to you and says like, oh, it's wonderful hearing from you. What, what are I up to? you get into a little conversation. It's the best thing that can

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: I mean,

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: I.

Brad: in the last couple years, I had, um, uh, high school reunion. but also many of those people that I went to high school with, I also, I was in kindergarten with and stuff. And so, And, and what's fascinating is like that Yeah. It's like we, obviously, I. Met up at some point in our lives when we're already sort of out in like our adult world. But it's like that same thing can happen whenever I think of, of our inside jokes on the back of the school bus, like I'll text my friends and, and, and it's just one of those things that you're just kind of keeping those threads alive and it's our, it kind of jolts our collective memory. It's, there's something really powerful about that. It's, it's, it's almost like a, this is in my brain as a, as a memory or as a moment as, as a, a thing that I experienced and the ability to kind of just, yeah, remember that Irish pub or that, that thing reminds them of that. Like there's, there's something like really potent and powerful

Marc Thiele: Oh,

Brad: about that. That just reminder, uh, and that, and that of course, like can translate into future adventures. And I'm, I'm so glad and so grateful that we've had so many adventures like already, but I think that that, that kind of through line and that that ability to kind of like, keep things going, even if like, you know, everyone's on the back burner, just because you can only direct your consciousness in, in so many areas and at one point in time and hold so many thoughts in your head, but to just kind of like have a solid foundation of people and then there comes the time and in your case it could be like, oh, you're curating the next show. And, and there you go. And you're able to sort of like bring those people forward. But it's, it's, there's something really interesting about. Uh, these chapters in life and, and sometimes you're aligned and we find ourselves in a pub together, and then there's years that we're not. but that also doesn't rule out the opportunity to, to be in a similar situation again or a different situation again. Right. It's like, it's, it's that, that ability to cultivate, uh, friendships and relationships where it's, it's not transactional. It, there's a shared understanding that it's not like I am trying to make demands on your time. It's, it's a, I'll see you when I see you and I'm happy to see you.

Marc Thiele: Yeah,

Brad: And there, there's something beautiful in that.

Marc Thiele: absolutely.

Brad: what a ride. I mean, like seriously, it's what a ride. are, are people like that with you? Where they're like, what in the absolute you're where you're, you're doing what now?

Marc Thiele: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, uh, yeah, one of my close some, some of my close closest friends, they, they, they always joke about like how much I work in the year. Right. Then they, especially my band mates, they go, well, uh, you only work like four days a year. Right? It's like, yeah. And what's the problem for you guys?

Brad: Amazing. it is really something else, but it, but it does, it, it there's a lot of work that goes into it, but it, it, it feels like if you were to call it work, right? Like that work that we are just talking about or like shooting off a text or an email or something like that, that is technically work. I suppose it's, it is labor to, to, to do that or whatever.

Marc Thiele: And that, that's actually a really good, uh, aspect of, uh, what we haven't, uh, spoken about. 'cause in, uh, both our cases, we have got family that support what we, what we do in a way. And even

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Marc Thiele: by just, um, being okay with what we do. Like they supported enough, right?

Brad: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Thiele: And, uh, think, uh, that's one of the, the hardest tasks that. part of the family has to learn that even though you sometimes go into a pub with someone like you, for example, or having dinner with someone that I know who spoke or who might speak at my event soon. even that I enjoy that and that's like kind of enjoyable and, and great times. And having a jolly still is kind of work as well, right? So I still have

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: head on here 'cause I need to speak to you about the next show where I want you to be on my stage and what are you gonna talk about? This kind of stuff. so it doesn't mean just because I really, really, really am. privileged to being able to enjoy what I do in these moments. Uh, it's still work and it also

Brad: Yeah.

Marc Thiele: wears me out in a different way maybe than someone is worn out with something that they don't like to do and work in a big factory and getting dirty and being exhausted, like from their body, like really, uh, uh, in the evening, right? So, uh, again, I,

Brad: Yep.

Marc Thiele: that and I get really that this is a really, really, really big privilege, which I had to learn that it is because I don't know other, I always have been my own boss. Um, again, it still is work, um, a different

Brad: Yeah. Yeah. is it fair to say that it's like the work is a natural extension of how you are. Right. And, and I think that that's, that's the important lesson there is like, if you can figure out that formula that you can show up as your authentic self, you can do activities, cultivate relationships, do things that are fun, enjoyable, energizing, you would do them anyway, even if you money weren't an issue. If you could somehow translate that in, an interesting way, uh, into, oh, this is also just how I happen to make money.

Marc Thiele: Yeah,

Brad: that's a really. Great place to be. And I, and it, it is truly, it is truly a privilege, but it's also not a privilege that is reserved for people like us. I, I, I think in, in my heart that it, it really does involved giving yourself permission to transcend those boxes, to, I think a lot of people shrink themselves. And I was just like talking about this on the, the, the Smashing podcast, um, where it's like people are, are trying to, and it's, and it's hard because it's like, yeah, the Marcet is hard and you're trying to find jobs, or there's these things and there's these expectations and there's these things that have these borders and these boundaries. And then there's people like us who, who don't abide by those boundaries. And people will say, oh, those are, you know, those are unique or, or. They're able to do this, but I'm not, and I challenge that. I challenge that. I think that, I think that everyone, it's, it's hard work to get to that place. It requires a lot of guts, but at the same time, like this is attainable. Especially now, I mean, like, we're talking to each other. You're in Germany, I'm in Pittsburgh. we've got more gear than most people. I probably, as far as like audio, video, equipment goes, but it's like the, the materials to be able to exercise your own path and at this point feels like a bit of more the giving yourself permission to, contemplate it and maybe even act on it. it's like, what, what does your version of that look like? And I think it is, it's available to a lot of people, and that's where kind of fun and exciting and novel things happen versus like the going through these motions for this company over here and hopefully you enjoy that or whatever, but, but there's likely bits of you that don't fit into that box and maybe there are opportunities to explore the, the fuller version of yourself. I could understand and appreciate how it's like, yeah, you gotta pay the bills. And, and that's. A viable way to do that for a lot of people. But my concern is, is that they leave the other parts of them on the cutting room floor I think that there's just like so many opportunities to realize that and people like us are able to kind of help, like you said earlier, like be, be a role model for, for people to, to look inward and say, not, not how do I do exactly what Marc does,

Marc Thiele: no, no,

Brad: but it's like maybe like there are ways for me to say like, ah, like I'm really interested in that and. I've always wanted to do something about X, Y, or Z and to, and I see Marc doing that, and, and maybe I should give that a shot. Like, I think, I think that that's really inspiring. It's really cool. I thank you so much for, for talking because it's like, You exist in the world in a certain way. You're showing up in a certain way. you know, you're unique, but you're also aware that your uniqueness is not, off limits to other people And I, I just, I really appreciate that about you as like, it, it just comes across like loud and clear,

Marc Thiele: Thank you very

Brad: so,

Marc Thiele: It's very kind of

Brad: yeah. the only other structured question of this entire show is, what music do you want more people to know about? What, what, what music people should people hear?

Marc Thiele: that's a tough one. That's a really tough one.

Brad: It is,

Marc Thiele: might sound stupid and maybe a lot of other people already said the same, but. I'd encourage you to, to, open the box that you are usually in and, uh, listen to music that you don't usually listen to. ' cause it might not be a full album catching you, but the, the one or other tune that you dive into and all of a sudden you explore, an artist or a band or an orchestra way. Usually say like a classic music, nah, that's not my, my cup of tea, but there's this one song that I really like, right? So just can encourage everybody to, to also there look beyond their own plate at the tand and uh, uh, listen to other music. Then what you usually listen to, if you're usually like majority of music you listen to is hip hop, maybe try some metal or try some classical stuff. Um, and vice versa. Um, I think you can only benefit from that 'cause there's like so many really good music in all of the genres, um, that you are not limited to a certain subject in my opinion.

Brad: Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. It's, again, it's, it's the, it's the boxes. It's the, yeah, it's the transcending your, your own. This is what good music is. Um, I,

Marc Thiele: not

Brad: I like to

Marc Thiele: music for, for me,

Brad: No,

Marc Thiele: really Not. Uh, and also

Brad: no.

Marc Thiele: rarely, there's bands I tend to listen to more. Yes. Or artists listen, uh, to more, but it's not a specific thing. It's like really has no boundaries. Music is a, a general great thing.

Brad: And when you look at the music. so much of people's baggage around music is around the culture around it, or again, the, the, the, the stereotypes the long hair met equals metal and, and just kind of that really naive or, or one dimensional or shallow interpretation of it when you actually like, listen to music, any genre like, dig into, there are aspects of it. That it just, if you just show up with an open mind to any genre or any type of music and just try to connect with it just on its own. Right? Like don't, don't try to like force yourself. Just, just receive it. Just receive it. And non-judgmental, just kind of receiving of music that you're not used to. I, I like that's, that's good advice. That's good advice. gimme one, one band though. Or one, one artist

Marc Thiele: I recently stuck to a, a, a live concert on TV where I, in the evening, just like zapped into, and, uh, that was by Han Zimmer And, uh, it is like film music. It was a life concert. And, in, I think like, well, I'm not a big biggest fan of his music, but man, I was listening to that whole life concert. I, I, I could not stop listening to it. I was like, I know that film, I know that movie. I know that theorist. So you just do everything. And of a sudden you recognized how much music in movies and films actually makes the film, right. I, I mean, honestly, it's like you, you could see pictures just because you listen to the music. And I, and I

Brad: Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Thiele: fascinating. So, um, I think it's called, the World of Hans Sum. I recommend this to

Brad: Okay.

Marc Thiele: 'cause that's like

Brad: Beautiful.

Marc Thiele: It's a video stuff. You can find it online. Um, and then there's a band, uh, I listen to right now at the moment. It's, its name is, uh, sleep Token. they max themselves and I thought it would be quite a heavy band, but they, the majority of their songs is quite soft, actually. Uh, it's quite

Brad: Hmm.

Marc Thiele: quite poppy in a way though, how they structure and write their songs. Uh, I think, uh, that's one I get back to a lot these days at the moment. And another band that sadly split up, which is a bit harder, from, uh, uh, from Australia. They called 12 Foot Ninja. And they are really good in mixing different genres of music. So a metal song turns into a podcast song, turns into a flamenco song, and they are so funny. Brilliant. Honestly, I like that kind of stuff. It's, it's very specific. It's, uh, I, and I think. to keep it with the words of my wife is, if you're not a musician, don't listen to that kind of music. 'cause I

Brad: Yeah,

Marc Thiele: like all

Brad: sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marc Thiele: you know? keeping it to that three. To those three for you,

Brad: good. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you for, for all of that. And I, and I think for, for the lesson of just kind of in general, going outside of comfort zones, I think is, is really fantastic and a good theme of our conversation as well, so and then last thing is, is, we've, we talked a lot about your conferences, so, so what's your conference? Where should people go to, to

Marc Thiele: Uh, uh,

Brad: your shows and all of that stuff?

Marc Thiele: advertisement block.

Brad: Yeah, no, please do.

Marc Thiele: uh, oh, I mean, my, my event is called Beyond Tellerand where tellerand means the edge of the plate. Um, and the idea is that you explore stuff that you normally wouldn't explore on your day to day work. Um, so if you are a, a web developer, come and, and see some of the graphic design people that I invite or some experimental stuff. someone speaks about how we lived as a goat for a while on the mountain happen as well in my event. Uh, and you find information at, t in November, in Berlin. yeah, and in in general, I'd say, um, go and have a look at this and if you have any questions, I. He's gonna find me on the bed.

Brad: Beautiful. Oh, man. That's awesome. Well, cool. Thank you. Until, uh, until we meet again, until, uh, we will talk before Berlin. But, uh, but thank you so much for taking the time to, to share yourself with

Marc Thiele: absolute pleasure. Thanks for inviting

Brad: this on. Yeah,