Working Towards Balance with Designer Cameron Moll

Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up Excited! In this episode I talk with Cameron Moll. Cameron is a veteran web designer, leader, consultant maker, family man, and is one heck of a nice guy. I've been learning from Cameron for as long as I've been working on the web, so I was thrilled to be able to have such a wide ranging conversation with him. We cover a lot of ground talking about longevity and age in a fast moving industry, different management, design, and teaching styles, the power of authenticity in building trust in creative teams, the importance of diversity in all dimensions, how Cameron's faith informs his values and operating system, why attitude matters so much. Cultivating hobbies for the hell of it, and the never ending task of finding balance in a world full of obligations. Before we begin, I wanna remind you that Wake Up excited is entirely self-funded, kind of acting as my own advertiser here. So if you'd like to support the show and the rest of my work and my family, I'd love it if you checked out our online courses. We just launched pre-orders for a brand new course called AI and Design Systems that teaches your team how to create great digital products by combining the generative power of AI with the thoughtful constraints and guardrails of a design system. So you could check that out at aianddesign.systems, and you could check out our other courses about digital design and development bradfrost.com/courses. All right. Without any further ado, here's my conversation with Cameron Mall. Welcome to the wake up excited podcast. I'm super excited to have Cameron Moll here. Right off the bat. what has you waking up excited?

Cameron Moll: Oh, gosh. so maybe I should start here. Probably not the right place to start, but I have a love hate relationship with, my career, with design, with tech and everything else like that. And so there's, Some things that just frustrate me to no end, you know, I think I'm preaching to the choir to some degree to you and maybe other people listening to this, that it's, it can be a tough industry. And yet I still wake up super excited that I get to design. I mean, seriously, I, I get to design stuff that people use. they, they interact with it. It might change their lives. It might make their day a little bit better, whatever it is. I mean, the fact that we get to do that day in and day out, think 25 years into it, I wouldn't have expected myself to still be excited about designing, but I'm just as excited as I've ever been.

Brad Frost: That's beautiful. and that, that longevity especially in a medium is not all that old.

Cameron Moll: Yeah. I mean, really what we've been doing is, is almost like the Genesis of, of when you and I both started, tech and design. Pieces components coming together. It's still a relatively nascent industry. And so in the early days, we were just making it up. And I think that kind of making it up has never gone away. We're in an era now where we're kind of making things up with a I right in a different way. And so I think some of that making up ness is what keeps me on my toes, which keeps us, I think, engaged in this industry. But I think also leads to the hate side for me of like, Oh, yeah. It feels like I'm always chasing what's next around the corner. And can I really stay on top of my game, especially when I have people literally now half my age coming up that are fantastic designers, right? And they know how to, how to do AI prompting really well or something like that. And so, you know, trying to stay up with that pace can sometimes be literally exhausting, but, uh, I think I'm still holding my own so far, but, uh, we'll see how long that lasts.

Brad Frost: Do you, do you feel that, like, you feel that, that kind of replacement pressure, like, do you feel that way?

Cameron Moll: You know, I've, I've felt that way for a long time now. I think it was most evident when I joined a Facebook Meta back in 2016 and so many of my peers. We're so much younger than myself. you know, I had five kids at the time coming into that role and most of my peers were either not married or if they were, they didn't have kids yet. And so it did feel like everyone around me was kind of running circles around me because they were younger and whatever else that might equate to. It's this weird, unnecessary pressure, maybe that I've placed on myself that there's somebody who's going to replace me if I don't keep my game up. And so therefore I always have to be a better designer, a better leader, you know, staying on top of trends and all of those things. And it's just, it's an unrealistic expectation. It really is self imposed. Yes, there might be someone who would replace me at some point, but this is now, you know, I joined Facebook what in 2016. So this is nine years ago. Nobody's killed me off. And nobody's probably going to kill me off for another nine years, right? So this is really something I should not be worrying about. But it, I think it's just the, the, the environment that surrounds us, that this, this environment, this industry welcomes people to start at a very young age. And so I think that will always be the case, right? The tinkers, the explorers, whatever, age 16, 14. Can you name it? There's always going to be people around us that bring in this vibrant energy that, that at our ages now, we literally don't have the same energy we had 25 years ago, 30 years ago. But needless to say, we have the other things they don't, the wisdom, the experience. I mean, you just go on and on name, the number of things that we bring to the table and need to remind ourselves of that we still have so much to offer.

Brad Frost: absolutely. And, and it's in the combination of those things that great things can happen because if you put a bunch of, inexperienced people together and say, go and point them at something, they're going to make a freaking mess. Right. at the same time, so, so that, that tension is, kind of welcome because you get people who have been through the ringer enough times to know, these weird left turns, or here's these really dangerous areas to avoid and here's the real armor, you know, here's here's where that path will take you and to have that vantage point is really helpful what have you found to be helpful to kind of take that pressure off of yourself? Obviously, like, it doesn't ever fully go away again. You're always like, am I still relevant? Et cetera, et cetera.

Cameron Moll: Yeah, I think two things come to mind. Number one, so over the last few years, I've been on this journey to figure out what as a design leader, does my role really need to be at this stage of my career as I lead teams, as I write and those sorts of things. But I'm in this tussle right now of how much I should be managing design. And how much I should be actually doing design and kind of leading through design. One of my peers at Metta would often say, you know, because he was not doing any design, nor was I doing design as head of design for the Facebook events platform. I mean, I can literally count on. Two hands, the number of times that in three years I ever opened up sketch, it was sketch back then or figma to design stuff. It was that infrequent. And so my peer would often say, you know, I, I designed through people that he's, he's kind of designing through his teams. And that's, I think what a lot of the industry became over the last. Eight, 10 years where we have a lot of middle level and upper level managers that are mostly managing people. And they're kind of managing design through, through other people. I think we're seeing some of that come back to the earlier days of our industry, where now we have leaders that are, that are more hands on. And that's been my kind of shift over the last couple of years in particular, where I'm now starting to do more design than I've done. Getting back to, to maybe a creative director role for a lack of a better term, that's a terrible title to use, but it's along those lines. And so for me, it's, it's kind of balancing the act of managing design and managing design through people with showing people what great design looks like. And so I've had to, you know, um, I'm very much now in Figma, uh, these days. I'm very much in, in just the, the nuts and bolts and the trenches of design. And I, I really enjoy that, but I also have to balance that with still managing and leading design. So I don't know that I could tell you right now if I've figured it out, right? The balance between managing design through other people. And doing design and showing what great design looks like. But I think there's, there's that it's a good tussle to be having for myself and perhaps for, you know, for others to have that tussle of what is that right balance. And for me at this stage of my, of my career, it is not what my five previous years were, were at Facebook and then later at Pendo where I was really not doing any design. I think where I'm at now where I'm doing some design and some management slash leadership is, is where I need to be operating right now. So I find a lot of Value getting back to your question and being able to combat those feelings of, Oh, I can't design because you know, these people are younger and faster and all of those things. Well, no, I, I actually still can, I think design relatively well. And so I feel like I'm still in the game, so to speak, by doing that, I'm remembering number two, but before I go to number two, I'm going to pause there. If you have anything that you want to jump in and say. Okay. Okay.

Brad Frost: in that there's this multi dimensionality to it that you could lead by demonstration. You could lead by modeling. You could lead by by just doing the thing and sort of saying it's like this. Whenever I consult with companies, we get in there and our whole ethos is around teaching a team how to fish. We always talk about this idea of like a crossfade. Where it's just I'm going to do this the first round, the next round, you know, we're going to do it kind of in equal parts. And then the last round, you're going to do it and I'm going to be just more, you know, backseat, hovering art director style, nudging and guiding, but you're going to be taking on the bulk of it. So it's the it's the action, the teaching the demonstration is the words. It's the it's the act. It's the all of that stuff kind of hanging together that yields good results versus. It's it's this or it's that and there used to be like, one last thing I'll say is like, I come from the agency world and that was a big conundrum for designers. There is like a specific design path and a career ladder and eventually you end up. Where you ended up, which is, oh yeah, you're, you're such a good designer that you no longer do it. It's just,

Cameron Moll: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Frost: What I am interested in. I don't think I'm particularly good at it. It's not, it's not going to fill my cup, which is a totally valid path. I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. I just kind of want to. get compensated, I guess, or, or, or sort of the, the status that comes with that or whatever. So, as I've sort of like turned towards like teaching, which is effectively what design leadership is. It's like, you, you are a teacher and there's a lot of different modalities to teaching and, Teaching by way of of doing and demonstration or like really potent and powerful tools.

Cameron Moll: I mean, you're making some really important points here. We've, we've matured as an industry for the most part, where you, it used to be like, you were saying that if you wanted to progress in your career, you had to go into management and stop designing, right? So we take these fantastic designers and turn them into people and process managers, and they would not design anymore. And now we have a lot of companies have a management track for promotion. And, and I see typically called an IC individual contributor track where you can get up to like principal level, staff level and things like that. And we're seeing more of those titles just, uh, over the last week I've seen principal titles on LinkedIn more than maybe I have recently. And, and so I think we've really matured, but I don't think we figured out is what you touched on earlier. And that is for the management track. It's often a belief that once you go into that track, it's like your, your design days are over. Right. And you can no longer. Manage and do design, right? You're done. You're going up that track and it doesn't need to be a binary decision. In some cases, it does be certainly when you get into higher levels, you know, at, uh, you're probably doing a lot of people in process management, but I, I'm starting to disagree more with the notion that, you know, even at a chief level design role, you should be doing zero design. I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm starting to question if that's actually the reality of where we should be going as an industry, or if there's. There still needs to be some element of a very senior level manager, director, whatever, who is still doing some design. And, and, and we could talk forever about what doing some design means, right? That could be clock that could be outside of work. That could be sitting in design critiques, right? And that's your form of designing. But the point I'm trying to get at is, is I just don't think we need to let go of the act of designing maybe as much as we believed we've needed to over the last five to seven years. And I keep using that, you know, timeframe of five to seven, eight to 10, whatever, cause that's been my experience of going to like, let's call it the Silicon Valley type mindset of, you know, we, we have the manager track, the IC track and never the trains shall meet in some respects. And I think it's a good. Time to be asking the question. Is that the right way to go for our industry? Now, let me, uh, segue into something you mentioned as well. And that is point number two. One of the things I really enjoy now and get excited about, and that helps me maybe temper the feeling that I'm getting replaced by younger people is. Yeah. I love being able to teach and educate and mentor. And you can certainly do that through designing like we're talking about now, but you can also do that through route writing and speaking and all of these other things, right? You and I've been doing this for a very long time. two. 2005 South by Southwest was the very first time I spoke at a conference. And for me back then I was six years into my career and I probably should not have been on stage. I'm like, who am I to actually know what I'm talking about, but here I am. And so back then it was like pretending that I know everything to some. Now it's like I, I don't know everything now, but I sure know a lot more now. And so now I, I feel very confident in my ability to educate and mentor and, and kind of lift up the next generation of designers. And so that, that makes me really excited whether or not I'm frightened by the fact that they're half my age and they can design better than I am. I've got all these other things that they don't have yet that I can help them get to a, a, a much better spot in their careers.

Brad Frost: Yeah, it's beautiful. And I think that there's a real potent and powerful. Thing that happens when you make that connection through sharing what you've learned, you do a great job at sort of bearing the hard stuff and here is that struggle. What you're able to do, especially whenever, you know, you've been at this for a long time to just even say the things you're saying now that it itself is a gift. To a lot of people because a lot of people are that six years or less in their careers and they're like, ah, I shouldn't be on stage or whatever, like, or who am I to say this whenever there's all these other people that are doing it and I think that it's that Willingness to share and be vulnerable and to demonstrate that and to say, hey, here, here are these feelings and here are these things and here are these things that I'm wrestling with. And guess what? Nobody has it figured out. You're not alone in that. There's something really, really important there because it deflates so much of that just really toxic mentality that I feel like gets in the way Of really good stuff from happening like there's a real Power to that just like hey, don't know how this works. It's like holy shit. He actually said it He actually said it like yeah, I don't I don't get how it works either. All right, let's figure it out, you know There's something cool in there. Nobody has this figured out. And anybody that pretends they do, I will sit back and Mm hmm. Sure you, sure you do. Tell me how this is all gonna go down.

Cameron Moll: I'm so glad we're talking about this and here's why authenticity has been so important to me. As a leader and in everything that I do, um, I don't know that I've, this is why I love that. We're talking about this. I'm not sure that I've ever written or talked about this. It's not secretive, but you know, back in the earliest days I called my website, my blog, authentic boredom. you know, I founded a board called authentic jobs. My flicker username was authentic. I mean, all of these things, and I don't think I was trying to be pretentious, but it was kind of underscoring that I care a great deal about authenticity. So to your point, it matters a great deal to me that I let people know that I don't have everything figured out and that I'm learning from something and that I made a mistake here or things like that. You know, that's, I appreciate seeing this in the people that lead. And direct to me, you know, and I know that people that I've led and the teams that I've worked with certainly appreciate seeing that Cameron doesn't have everything figured out the, the reason why I, I think I really enjoy this is because much of the leadership world, and especially in tech, you're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to look like you have things figured out. You're supposed to always be confident. And, and I, I'm kind of intentionally not that person sometimes because a, that's just fundamentally not who I am. And B, I want people to see that there is another way to lead and to manage, and that is to let people know that you don't have it figured out.

Brad Frost: And, and in fact, At some point, when somebody does pretend to know all the answers, back to that authenticity, it's like, there is no way you authentically know everything that's, that's going on, not to totally, like, wade into politics, but when you talk about something that's so huge. multifaceted To show up with like certitude around all of it. Like here's exactly what we're gonna do. It's like me a break me an absolute break, there's kind of an interesting dynamic there because there's a difference between Confidence, which is a good quality, right? And authenticity, which is a good quality and, truth. And there's a lot of stuff like wrapped up in that, but you're out of your depth, or it's like, eh. I know a little bit

Cameron Moll: and

Brad Frost: Certain coming back to a certain area of our field, it almost is, is promoting that kind of arrogance. And that's, that's, that's hard, especially whenever it's like, you got a bunch of people competing for the same jobs. Like the last thing you want to do go, I don't know. I don't know

Cameron Moll: mean, there is a reality that you do set yourself up for some bad situations, bad, you know, not great results when you go down the path of saying, I don't know, or I need to time to figure this out, you know, and there can be that void, that vacuum that you create that will be filled by someone else and that someone else may now start to take on the very things that you wanted to take on. Right. So there is, there is, an inherent risk in doing that. But for me, you know, I'm not going to try to pretend someone to be someone I'm not. And I want people around me to know that we are part of solving a problem together, that I don't have everything figured out. I've got a good idea and I can, I've got a good understanding of the process we're going to use to get there, but this is a team sport, right? And so if I, if I make it apparent that I kind of know where we're going guys, but I need your help in this. People start to get bought into that. Some people are not like that. I mean, I, I managed and worked with enough people that some people don't like being led by the, I don't know, authentic profile types. They want the. Uber confident, you know, super confident. They want that type of leader and they're turned off. I've seen this happen personally before they're turned off by that style of leader, the Cameron style of leader, let's call it. But at the end of the day, I can't be the, the leader for everyone, right? I got to be the leader I'm most effective at. And if that's not going to work for some people, I have to be okay with that. Okay. Yeah.

Brad Frost: at some point, though, it does become a reflection of, you know, the individual of ethos and what their operating system is. as you're saying it, I, like, the thought that came to mind is like. wish that I had more time to watch basketball, but like growing up and being in like in the nineties and stuff would watch a lot of basketball. And so you'd see college basketball and it's just, you know, they'd work the ball around the whole perimeter and pass the ball like eight times before somebody goes up for a shot. And then in stark contrast was the professionals who, you know, is just totally a game of one on one. They'd, you know, only dish it off if, if they are triple teamed and, and, and they couldn't take it any further and even then it's still probably try to go up for a shot. And I remember that contrast being so stark where it's like, here you have this, like, well oiled team machinery and it's real collaborative understanding versus this, like, I'm a freaking superstar and I guess you'll be around if I need you I don't know That's that's that's like that's what came to my mind and I think that that silicon valley Ethos is that is that rock star developer designer or whatever or that the people have just been fed A lot of stuff at the end of the day, the reality remains what you said earlier. This is a team sport is a team sport, irrespective of if you want to admit that or not. that's on you, reality is, unless you are building that database from the ground up, the CI CD pipeline in addition to your brand guidelines, in addition Get over yourself, you know, like you rely on other people, other people rely on you. That is a reality.

Cameron Moll: On a percent on a percent. And I think it goes without saying to our peers that are listening in those Silicon Valley areas or companies that there's plenty of good work that's being done. I think sometimes we over dramatize what might happen and, you know, The big pockets of our industry, but it can, it can happen anywhere. It doesn't matter if you're in Florida myself or anywhere else, it can happen in all of those places. But for me, I think I've tried to carry that, you know, we lived in Utah for 10 years. That's where my career started. And then we moved to Florida and then we moved to back to California and back to Florida. And so I've tried to carry with me, you know, anywhere I've gone. I've tried to carry, you know, Cameron's management style as best as I could, even though to some degree we all have to conform to whatever our current employer is and, and we kind of let some things go dormant in the ways that we manage and design and so forth. And that's totally fine in an effort to be able to play the game in a good way. At the end of the day, We've got to keep parts of us that are uniquely us. And for me, it's just been making sure I, I don't always come off like I've got everything figured out. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Brad Frost: think that that's amazing and back to that authenticity. I think that that matters. And just as you're sort of reminding me of your different geographical changes, there's the old phrase, like, no matter where you go, there you are, right?

Cameron Moll: Yep.

Brad Frost: I don't know if you feel this way, but I think that a lot of people. And to be a part of their environment and an episode of getting carried away by it or swept away by it and and there's there's something that's really interesting and as someone who has all over there like formal handles like that that idea of kind of having a good sense of self having a good value system and having a good introspective look and understanding of what you're doing and how you're applying yourself. Having that in place as you change geographies, as you change jobs, as you change like different things, speak to that, like how, how you, how you feel about that, that kind of sense of self for that foundation. And how that interacts with wherever you happen to find yourself

Cameron Moll: square peg and round hole for my entire career, and on the one hand, I appreciate the Insights that I've been able to acquire because of that. And on the other hand, I'm, I'm appreciative of my peers that have been maybe understanding of being a square peg in that round hole for again, my entire career. If I can go way back, the timing was such that we, we found out we were, so I got married when I was 22. We had our, our first kid at 24 when I was 24. And I remember the timing of. finding out we were pregnant with the first one and getting offered a full time, my first full time role in web design happened almost two weeks of each other, something like that.

Brad Frost: my God.

Cameron Moll: So I've not known anything other than having like kids, my literally my entire career. My oldest is now 24 and we have five sons. They're all sons. Two of them are now married. And so it's just like, wow, it's just like what happened over these last. two and a half decades. So the family part of it, I think has kept me grounded for, in every aspect. It's kept me grounded in terms of like, I need to shut off and go home because I've got, you know, responsibilities at home. It's kept me grounded in terms of what really matters to me. Do I care that much about design that I'm going to, you know, exhaust my, all my available weekends doing design work or are there other things that matter? Just as much or perhaps matter even more. And of course my family matters more than those things. And so for me, work has been a vehicle to provide for my family and to be able to provide a wonderful upbringing for five outstanding sons. And so that's always had to be part of how I've operated. And I think that, I don't think, but I know that has informed how I've managed. And when I have someone now that I'm literally managing people that are the same age as my kids, I get it right. I understand what that kid perhaps has been through in their life up to this point. I understand their aspirations. I understand just a bunch of things that a lot of managers. Maybe don't understand that human component. They understand the processes and the design systems and all those things, but maybe they don't get the mental health side of things. Like you got a human being sitting across the table from you that might be suffering severely from depression and you're having to figure out how to work with them as their manager. And they're not kind of like put it all on the table. You're not their therapist, but you do need to understand that that's part of the calculus of managing this person, they might not be able to show up at work. You know, tomorrow, because they just are in a really bad funk and it's going to take a day or two to get out of that. How do you deal with that as a manager? So I think that's really helped me to be a different person throughout my career than I would have been otherwise without having a family as a big part of that.

Brad Frost: you. experienced having five children through this immensely challenging period of COVID it's should be talked about more. It's like, man, that messed us up. That messed us all up. But you talk about a bunch of young minds. My young, my youngest cousin, who is quite a bit younger, she missed her senior year of high school in her first year of university. And it's like, man, you want to talk about some of the most important times, like you're establishing your sense of self. these young

Cameron Moll: Yeah,

Brad Frost: that ability for you to empathize with what they're going through is huge you wouldn't get if yeah, you're maybe like years old and haven't figured out, but you haven't had those kids of your own yet or whatever. So, yeah,

Cameron Moll: our second oldest went through that exact experience that you just described there. We had his graduation. Oh, back. Yeah, we had his graduation back in our, our yard and in a bunch of other things. And it was, man, that was a tough period for them. something else I think is worth mentioning is that I've tried to not, position myself as being, more qualified as a manager than my peers just because I have Children. There's there's there's no reason for me to like wield this sort of I have kids and you don't. And so therefore, I'm a more experienced manager. I've I've I've tried my best to never take that approach because I think Any manager has a fair shot at being a great manager, whether or not they have kids. Some, some, of course we have, we all, I think have friends and family members who are physically unable to have kids. Right. And there's that component as well. And so I never want people around me to feel like they're less than I am because they don't have kids. It's just to say that I might be able to bring something to the table that other managers can't bring to the table. And I shouldn't be ashamed of that. I should try to leverage that. Okay.

Brad Frost: We all we, we come to, to work into life our own privileges and our own burdens and our own unique experiences like that. That is, it is a given. That there is no carbine copy of you around, right? I think that that's one of the things that upsets me so much whenever things like diversity get sort of weaponized and in this moment in time it is. It's this really, you know, hot button issue. It's like, what we're talking about a bunch of people that have a bunch of perspectives, a bunch of experience, the ability to come together and bring a diversity of different life experiences. make things better, like without a doubt, without a doubt. Oh, have you considered this? Oh, no, I didn't, because I didn't go through that or I don't experience that, right? In the same way that, yeah, no kids, right? You lived in Utah. I've never lived in Utah, right? Like it's, it's, and that's what, that's what gets so gross about like this, this kind of thing. Weaponization and this and this watering down of diversity. It's like when you experience the diversity of experience. And a diversity of people you come to appreciate, or at least this has been the case for me, and I'm really fortunate to have this perspective is that you're like, oh, okay. This is different. This isn't better or worse. you have, you have kids. with it the, all the great lessons learned from that and the perspective from that. other person has had this really weird adventure. They lived a nomadic life for three years and that gives them their own perspective.

Cameron Moll: Yep.

Brad Frost: And it's in the coming together of all of those different things is where really beautiful things can happen. And that's why I love back to back to the sort of like the excitement of like still getting to design and do things. the fun you get to show up with those other people who are bringing with it their own tools, their own experience to the table, and you get to point that. In a direction together and like how freaking cool is that like that's it. That's it right there Like as as a musician oh you you know how to play Okay, we're gonna play. don't know what their background is. I don't know what genres they're adept in or not But we're going to figure it out, right? Like we're going to have some fun playing together and we'll make something uniquely ours because like no two people have had the exact same experience

Cameron Moll: Okay.

Brad Frost: background as us. And it's, it seems so obvious to me, but at the same time, like the, it seems like there's an, it's said explicitly, or it's just implicitly there, it's false binary of, yeah. There's a right way of doing things and there's a wrong way of doing things that frustrates me to know Oh,

Cameron Moll: on my, my music nerve for a second, so I'm going to draw an example. From there. Um, I really love the music of, Miles Davis and John Coltrane. And, uh, you know, they're kind of blue album, one of the best albums I think of all time. And, and that's a great example of like two very different musicians that come together to produce something remarkable and beautiful. And Miles Davis is like, he's very articulate about like the notes he plays, right? They're selective. They're here. They're just a dash. Here and then maybe waits for a couple of seconds and then throws in a couple more notes. John Coltrane is like, he's all over the map, right? It's like,

Brad Frost: Yeah

Cameron Moll: how are those two guys going to work together? And, and I think that to your point, I think that's, that's how we, we operate best. Sometimes I've, I've long said that some of the worst teams are where you have. A players, all they're all a players on the team, so to speak. And you don't have any, you know, diversity, not only racially and everything else, but you just don't have diversity of like talent or of experience and so on and so forth. And so you want to bring together those different voices and the backgrounds that they have and have kids and, and don't have kids. And that's, I think when we produce fantastic teams that are really capable of, producing phenomenal experiences. It's not that we need those things. To produce great user experiences, right? There's there's to some degree we could do that without, you know, talking extensively like we have been about, um, you know, Cameron has kids and you don't and blah, blah, blah. We could still produce great work, but I think it's just the nature of those teams working together. That magical things happen when you allow that diversity. And I like to think of it as like full spectrum diversity, age and race and, and, and

Brad Frost: Everything

Cameron Moll: You put that in a, in this like pot and you allow just these wonderful things to happen. I don't know, I kind of go back to the fact that I'm, I'm a little shocked And very appreciative that some people have been so welcoming of me over the years because I, I do feel like this square pay. I'm a very religious person to add to having kids and everything else. Right. And so I've been very careful to not let my beliefs bleed into the work that we do. But inevitably, when I show up for work, there's like the religious part of Cameron that's coming to work. And while you might not see that on the surface, that's informing The way that I manage that's informing the way that even I design. And so, the fact that we can allow people, not only allow, but embrace them to come to work with those things, whether or not they're visible on the surface, I think is, is that's our right. That's our privilege. That's what we need to be doing.

Brad Frost: Yeah No, that's that's that's really beautifully said and i'm glad you brought up your faith you're there, you sort of have this like sense of self and you're showing up. my observation of you is that yes, you've, you've been contemplating these things and there's a real intentionality to it. undoubtedly your faith has a big role in that sort of reflection of like, well, who am I and how am I operating in the world? Can you, can you speak to that a little bit?

Cameron Moll: Two things are coming to mind. So first, I think for me, I understand the long game the way that, you know, I have not only come to understand it by the teachings of the beliefs that I have, but who I've become as I've acted on those beliefs and as I've learned and had wonderful experiences. Being a very religious person. And so one, an example here is the fact that I, I very firmly believe that there is a life after this one. And so therefore the things I'm doing now will matter in, in the longer term. And so how does that relate to what I'm doing as a manager, as a person? And the things I allow myself to do or not to do, knowing that I'm going to be held accountable. My belief is that I'm going to be held accountable at some point for these actions. And so I can't just write off, you know, doing something stupid and, and uh, whether or not it hurts anyone, it doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah. I just know that that's going to be part of the calculus for me at some point. And so that, that I think helps inform maybe the decisions that, that I make and two related to that, I can't say I've always been the person at work that I want to be or should be, but I've tried to be someone at work that is, uh, not only faithful to, the responsibilities of the role. And the employer that I'm working with or whether or not it's my own company, but it's also faithful to the things that I believe in and the beliefs I have about treating other people as my neighbor and treating them with respect and love and dignity and all of those things. And we don't talk about like loving others in the workplace, but there is inherently a part of naturally what I try to do that includes a component of loving people in a neighborly way. That, that I work with and I just, you know, I have to find ways for that to be part of how I operate.

Brad Frost: Those, those have to be congruent. You could, you couldn't be showing up to, yeah, develop some weapons.

Cameron Moll: Here's the thing though. I mean, there have been times where, that people have done some wrong things and maybe I've done wrong things too. And you start getting into like legal action and all of that. And so it's like, how do I like show neighborly love to someone like that? So there's the reality of, we have to still be firm. In a secular sense, in a sense that we're, we're doing work, we're contractually obligated. Some things go really wrong sometimes in South and you have to take a firm stance and it doesn't feel right. It just feels icky and all of those things, but it is part of life. But at the end of the day, I still know that there's a long term for me and I try and, you know, I've got to navigate that terrible situation in such a way that I'll, I'll be okay with it, proud of it when it's all said and done.

Brad Frost: I think that that's really great. It's like that, that kind of moral compass and it sounds like you really, you know, lean on your faith to, help guide those difficult decisions where you could take it a number of ways, right? But it's there, there's almost that almost, like, heard you saying it's like, whenever fast forward 5 years down the road, or in the cosmic sense, right? At the end of life, how will I look back on that? And how will, you know, God or anyone me? On how I acted in that moment and that that perspective right that ability to kind of open it up whether whether it's God or, or just your future self like

Cameron Moll: Yeah.

Brad Frost: how I acted in that situation? Are there things I could have been doing better? that ability to step outside of yourself in that present moment is a really powerful tool to, to make sure that you're acting in accordance with, your true self and how you want to be as a person,

Cameron Moll: what you're making me think of is, okay, so Cameron's a square peg in a round hole and all of those things, but there is a business value in trying to show up to work in a way that other people want to work with you in a way that allows you to see the good in other people on, you know, the people that are maybe listening to this episode, I'll say to you what I'm going to say to some students, some UX students, very soon as I speak to them again, man, relationships in our industry are just. Invaluable. I mean, you and I have known each other for a very long time, right? And that started many, many moons ago. And we'd now had countless interactions that our paths have weaved in and out over the years. And that's because we initially established, you know, this, this relationship that has now blossomed into a phenomenal relationship. And so there is business value in finding ways to work well with other people. That pay dividends for many, many years to come. And we've both seen that. whether or not you are, you know, someone of faith like myself, maybe the takeaway is if you invest in, in treating other people nice, that's going to pay off in tremendous ways over the course of your career.

Brad Frost: it seems like a no brainer on a lot of levels, which is why kind of coming back to that, like, kind of rock star, go it alone attitude It might work out for you the short term, but like, in the long run, it's like, you're burning bridges, you're doing all this stuff that, you know, you'll find yourself, without a leg to stand on. you said, there's a business value, but also, my god, it is just the human thing to do. And one of my favorite things as a consultant to do. Ducking my head into these organizations that are various flavors of I don't want to say dysfunctional but just as we've kind of reminded each other of, I think in this conversation is one of the things that I love to do whenever I'm working with teams, it's like. Man, isn't this cool? We all get to do this together. Like, isn't this fun? Like, I will say it out loud and it's like, it'll get a chuckle. yeah, it's it's kind of meant for a laugh, but it's also I'm like, I'm being dead serious here, like, this is so cool. And we get to do this together. And how cool is that, that like, we get to like, have meetings where we're figuring out like, what, what color of blue, like this should be like, there's a billion things we could be doing that's worse than this. And so cultivating that, like, Why wouldn't you to just show up and do work with people that you enjoy being around? Why wouldn't you want to cultivate those relationships? Why wouldn't you? Like, like what are you trying to get out of, out of being competitive or of being cutthroat or to, I don't, I fundamentally don't get it. But some people, I've learned there's people I know that like to argue and like that's kind of like a, pass the time, I guess, like, they, they seem to get like a real enjoyment out of it. I don't understand it. I can't do that, but it's like, there's some people that just like to, do that. Like, they're, they're kind of wired a certain way. I don't know.

Cameron Moll: don't, I don't know either. I think there's definitely, uh, sometimes individuals that bring maybe, a contentious, approach to, to a discussion. There are others that they're just driven by excellence. And so their form of trying to get to the right outcome is to push firmly and to push others, you know, to, to, to be greater and to work harder and all those things. I think there is some jockeying that happens, maybe a. Big amount of that happening in some pockets where if, if your company does performance reviews every six months or whatever period of time, right, you know, you're going up against your peers for promotions for raises, whatever it might be. And so, you know, you're going to have to kind of like show up and be the strongest voice in the room and to be the person that. Came up with this brilliant solution. And so there's, there's definitely that dynamic that we've both seen over the course of our careers. But, uh, we, I dunno, we've got to find a way to balance that to where it's not all about the jockeying. It's not all about like producing the best experience mankind has ever known. It's like, no, no, no. Let's, let's enjoy this along. Let's have some fun doing it along the way.

Brad Frost: hard agree. And I think that there is, there's like a broader reframing where it's just like, there's a scarcity of resources. There's a scarcity of promotions. There's only so much money to go around or whatever. You could absolutely see and understand and appreciate that that creates a culture of competition that is born of that reality, right? That sets up that psychological game of like, well, like, how much do I really want to give? There's a lot of calculus there. But at the end of the day, not a surprise, or I would be surprised if you disagreed with me, but it's like that more collaborative approach yields better results, like 100 percent of the time, right? So when you talk about that, like scarcity of money or whatever that might be, we'll stick with money. It's like, well, if you as a team yielded, you know, much better results and therefore made more money, then it's like,

Cameron Moll: Yep.

Brad Frost: and that's, it's not the norm.

Cameron Moll: Yep.

Brad Frost: I don't think that that's the norm. It's absolutely possible. It's just isn't, it's not the norm

Cameron Moll: yeah, and one of the reasons this is so vitally important to ongoing, production of, of, of great output is because any team can work together where Everybody's a jerk. They hate each other. And yet they ship a phenomenal product at the end of the day. But guess what? That team is not going to work, want to work together again a second time, much less a third and fourth time. And so you're looking at the longer term of this machine, this team, this company producing great output consistently and regularly. And to do that, you can't have people Always jockeying for position. You can't have people showing up as jerks in meetings. You got to find a way such that the work is pleasurable. At the same time, it's producing high output, high quality.

Brad Frost: And, and that all feeds into burnout and mental health and taking good care of the people that you rely on. that's why I just, it's such a tragedy. it's more predominant in certain pockets, but, but other places not where it's just like, you need to grind the time. If you're not working 12 hours a day, then like, what are, what are you doing? Like you said, yeah, that might get that project done. person is going to be a husk and you can't sustain that. And do you really want to have to go through and put people through that you really want to encourage that it's such a counterproductive that is sure. Yeah, he's right. very strongly held. It's very prevalent. It is very prevalent. And all you need to do is go through it a couple times yourself to go, I do not want that. And if you're like anyone who's like listening that's experienced that or going through it now, or they're like feeling like they're getting close. Like, don't know what advice do you have

Cameron Moll: Mm.

Brad Frost: for for those people?

Cameron Moll: Oh, you know, Brad, this is really starting to come back to why I think. Yeah. Okay. Uh, a manager who's seen different situations in life can really be of value, especially to those younger employees for a couple of reasons. One, good managers that are experienced in, in understanding burnout, depression and so forth. They can anticipate before you do. That you're starting to approach that kind of burned out stage. I can't tell you the number of times I've told my team members to take time off. I'm like, I can sense that you probably are not seeing it, but I can tell you need some time off. So let's have a conversation about that. And a good manager can find tactful ways to, to approach that conversation. A good manager can also find ways that yes, you, you. Absolutely should reward employees for the performance that they put in, and especially the output of that performance. But you also should be capable of maybe identifying what a reasonable level of contribution to performance is when you look at the variety of life situations across your team. So let me give you give you an example of this. I remember a time where, in a performance review, A team member, I don't think it was mine. Um, this was part of a kind of a collaborative review where a certain team member had produced a phenomenal level of output and they were being kind of pitted against another team member as you're looking at like the promotions and so forth

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Cameron Moll: didn't have as much output during that same timeframe. But in this particular case, it was almost like pitting a young individual who was spending 12, 13, 14 hours a day on this effort. And then you had them up against someone who was spending, let's say eight hours a day, and they had to then shut off because they were a mother and take care of other responsibilities. And so there's no doubt that someone's going to produce more output if they're putting in 12, 13, 14 hour days compared to the lead hour day. Right. And so. I think an experienced manager can find a way to both reward the performance from that 12, 13, 14 hour individual, but also make sure that it doesn't then create an unnecessary exclusion for that other individual to feel pressured that they have to be working that much time to be able to stack up against their peers.

Brad Frost: it's like my immediate instinct is like, why is that person working 12 or 13 or 14 hours like that's that's not healthy. Go get a hobby.

Cameron Moll: Right.

Brad Frost: in that and that's the thing there's like there's like a deprogramming when you're in the, the young person season of life, starry eyed, bright eyed bushy tail. You know, go grab life by the horns, go in and get it. You're learning new skills. You're achieving mastery. there's a lot of just positioning of like, that's where you are, whenever you're getting started, you want to prove yourself, all of that good stuff. those aren't necessarily like bad things. think what, what is bad is exploiting that. that and that that is something that I've seen time and time and time and time and time again, many industries like my wife. She started out in the film industry, which is just like notorious for for that. force everyone to do it. And they're all, you know, young and hungry and are willing to put up with a lot of crap. In order to to get through to the other side and then eventually you join the union and it slows down like a little bit Like not also not really So it's like there's there's just like a a health and a pace that it absolutely is leadership's job to model that To prioritize that and not just from like a level playing field thing, which which also matters But just again that that longer term Sustainability

Cameron Moll: Yeah. The health of your team, this machine.

Brad Frost: But also writ large right like like society like writ large. It's like when you know, you've got your five kids They're all doing activity. There's a limit the amount of of those activities That they could do and like I don't know Do you can you like speak to like how you because there's there's literally a limit to time and space Your five sons each wanted to sign up for three different activities, And you just do that math and you look at how many hours there are in the day. And what your resources are and all of that stuff, like, can't happen, right? Like, it's, it's, it's impossible. I'm not quite there yet. My daughter's almost seven and I only have one kid. So it's like, well, we'll be fine. But I see a lot of people in my life who are totally redlining. it is the like life equivalent of that work in 12, 13, 14 hours a day with no reprieve.

Cameron Moll: Oh gosh. Brad, where could I go with this? Maybe I, maybe people are expecting to hear Cameron, the, the design leader here, but maybe I need to speak as Cameron, the father, you know?

Brad Frost: you, you gotta, you gotta speak as a person. Yeah.

Cameron Moll: magically life has found a way over the years, you know, with with the kids that we've had. And, uh, again, having them early on helped me, I think, understand that you can still find a way to to prioritize family amongst all of your demanding. You know, roles. I mean, there were times with my fourth son. I was my third or fourth son. I don't remember. I was literally on my laptop in the hospital no less than maybe 12 hours after they'd been born, right? Trying to catch up on things and crank out things. And unfortunately, that's the way that life is sometimes. And I don't recommend that, of course, but that's the reality of what happens sometimes. I get that. I understand it. over the years that we've had kids, it's always been a question of, of like, how are we going to afford another kid? How are we going to have time for another kid? Are we going to have to buy a bigger car for all these as more kids come? And yet, And magically it works out. I think when we care deeply about things in our life, be it work or family or anything else, you know, we make time for those things and, and, and we suddenly start with maybe consciously and unconsciously deprioritize other stuff that thought, you know, we thought it mattered, but it just doesn't matter as much now, I think the one thing I've, I've. Done right throughout my career as it pertains to like creating this balance and making sure I do have time for my family is, you know, I put in a good solid work day, but that's it. I mean, we're not, I might try to treat you with kindness and even love, but we're not family. So I'm going to spend eight hours with you and that's what you get from me. And then I go home to my other things. I'm not going to go hang out with you after work and do those sorts of things. That's just kind of who I am. But that, that forcing function of having kids has, has created that cutoff to be able to then go spend time. But like to your point earlier, I'm, I'm, you could say I'm putting in 16, 18 hour days when you calculate having work and then having kids on top of it. Right. I mean, it's a lot of stuff that we all have to do, but you just, it magically works out. And, uh, we were chatting before we started recording that, you know, there was a time where four of our sons were playing competitive soccer and we had on a Saturday, they were on three different teams. We had to find ways to get to their tournaments sometimes in three different cities. And it was just absolute madness. And yet I look back at that period was such great fondness. And I'm so happy we did that. We focused on what really mattered to them. The most of the time, but as crazy as it would, we had, we had a ton of fun doing it, you know, it was a wonderful period of our life. So I don't know, I feel like I'm just rambling, maybe not providing anything of value to what

Brad Frost: no.

Cameron Moll: to here, but

Brad Frost: so much there. Like, one, the attitude matters. And this is the thing kind of like to counter how you're saying it. And I'm sure experientially when you're in the moment. You are stressed you're racing to the next thing or you're you're like crap Am I gonna get there before the end of the second half or where like whatever that might be? I'm, no doubt there's stress involved in the moment what i'm hearing from you is that it's like that real deep understanding of Family is a priority. Family is everything, which is a value that I share very strongly You're able to show up to it and understand the importance of it and understand the value of it, even if it is like stressful or you're, you know, you're running around, but

Cameron Moll: Um,

Brad Frost: you have that sense of, of gratitude and understanding a lot different. And I'm not suggesting that the other people I see in my life. Who are redlining and they just they seem They seem miserable, frankly, They're being pulled away from being able to appreciate the moment

Cameron Moll: Yeah.

Brad Frost: and and I really want that In life in work and everything to be able to like have that presence and that gratitude and that appreciation That intentionality is like what I want for, for everyone to experience, and it's there. you need to do is, is shift the, the focus or shift your perspective on it.

Cameron Moll: I love that you're bringing this up because related to what we talked about earlier, authenticity and how important that is. is to me. I think it's important to let people know here that I don't have it all figured out and that we still have challenges as a family, I think where we do feel burned out and that we're running from one thing to the next. I do think it is a, a casualty that life just seems to get more busy. And I think there is some degree of, of technology that has amplified that you know, anyone can contact me at any time now because of this magical rectangle that I carry around in my pocket didn't used to be the case. Certainly wasn't the case when we, when we first had children and now it creates different dynamics that can make life feel very stressful. And so while I strive for that balance between work and family and everything else. The reality is, is that man, life can be so demanding sometimes and trying to put all the pieces together is hard. And so I think when I speak to like, you know, the balance for me, that's longer term or like in the short term, there are weeks where I just, I'm like everyone else. And I'm just like, I don't know how I stay on top of everything and it feels very stressful, but. Longer term, I know what I'm, I'm striving towards. I know that there are going to be some bad weeks and all of that, some bad days. But if I kind of keep my eyes on the prize, so to speak, of where I'm trying to go with my career and with my children and my relationship with my wife, then I trust that I'm going to get there. And I'm far enough into my life now that I've seen that that model works.

Brad Frost: that's beautiful. What I'm hearing you say is taking the time to dig deep, play that game of, of like, What am I doing here? Where am I going? What's my value system? really taking the time to do that. Can help in those moments. Yeah, we're all humans and we all experience stress We all just whatever things stack on top of each other and sometimes the cards just fall in a really awkward way you gotta figure out how to make it all work and it's gross like you're saying you could always fall back on or you know that that this is a node in time was like you created a phone contract,

Cameron Moll: Right Okay.

Brad Frost: like you said, this magical rectangle, that's also a total Pandora's box, just like chucking that at a young mind and saying, all right, knock yourself out. for as long as I've known you, I just like feed that like a real. Foundation level stuff really kind of shine through and I, I love that about you.

Cameron Moll: that. You know, it's, it's been so rewarding to have four of our five sons now be adults and to see who they've become. And it really puts into perspective that. You know, if this week is terrible, you know, and maybe, maybe your son slammed the door in your face because they were super upset with you over the long term, they turn out to be quite good individuals. And it's been so rewarding to see that, that despite my mistakes as a father, despite maybe not giving them enough time, because there were weeks where I was working 12, 14 hours, whatever. They still turned out to be phenomenal individuals. And I think the same applies to, to the teams that we work with and the teams that we lead as managers, that sometimes we get caught up in the quarter to quarter and what's what we're really doing. And we may not recognize that we're impacting a human being and many years from now, that human being is going to be appreciative of what you did, or they might regret and be, you know, scornful of what you did. And so we have that. Incredible privilege and opportunity to just try our best, and we're gonna get some things wrong, but to try our best to help these human beings produce great work while recognizing that they're also human beings.

Brad Frost: And I think that that's, that's really well said and, and just like showing up and recognizing the humanity of everyone we, that we encounter in life is, is seems to just go a really long way and just yield healthier outcomes than alternative.

Cameron Moll: It's worth, pointing out for those that are younger, listening to this, that there is value and sometimes necessity in. putting in longer hours early in your career to be able to try to get ahead. You know, I remember that, uh, Uh, even though we had kids, there were still days that I'd work a long day or I'd come home and do some freelance work and bless her heart. My sweet wife, Suzanne would be the one putting the kids down or changing their diapers. And some days I feel horrible about that, but we, we had an agreement that, you know, my role was to provide for the family and her role was to be a full time mother for the most part. And so we did our best and I hope nobody listening to this thinks Cameron never changed the diaper. I, I, I certainly did as much as I possibly could. Back then. But the point being is even then, even though I had kids, I was still working long days to try to get, get ahead of my career. And it did pay off in, in a lot of respects. And so I hope if you are younger in your career, that you're not hearing Cameron say, don't work long days. There may be times that you need to do that, especially early in your career where you need to get ahead. And that's, that's okay. You just figure out what works for you. But I think what you and I. Brad are talking about here is just making sure that you understand there's a longer term in this and what is that longer term going to look like for you? And what are you working towards in the longer term to make that happen?

Brad Frost: That's really well said. one of the other, talk to you on this show is our friend, Aaron Walter. He was the, the first person I think that I ever heard use the phrase seasons of life. And man, I've internalized that just like through and through where it's just like, Oh, there is a season of life where you're just getting started trying to earn your keep. We've already, you know, we've already talked about it. It's like your, your position, you're hungry or you, you don't have the skills, but you're eager to learn them doing all that stuff. But there's also a season in your case that happened concurrently like, Oh, I have a family to support. And that like changes how you operate. Right. And there's these, these different seasons of life. You're experiencing it now. Your kids are one by one, exiting the nest and and out into the world, right? Like, so, those moments in time change who we are, what our priorities are, how we show up, you know, how we spend our time and and what we need to value. And for me that's really helped frame a lot of this stuff because I wasn't wrong. Also, as as a young 20 something working 12 hour days, like, I don't I don't look back on that as like, Oh, that was just a huge mistake. I think it's a natural season of life for a lot of like younger people. the bigger thing that the message I hope They take away is what you were saying which is like, that intentionality of it, and also kind of coming back to this idea of exploitation. spend the time, even if you are that young person who's like, burning the midnight oil on behalf of some company, that's your first job or your second job or whatever it might be. That's okay. But just be aware, just be aware an understanding what you're doing and and you can be intentional. Yes, you're grinding on this. You're doing this work. You're doing this work on behalf of this other company could drop you like a bad habit if things go, and and all of that stuff.

Cameron Moll: Yeah, you said that beautifully. I mean, there is, there is some element of defensibility here that we have. If, if, you know, a company can take as much as they might want from us. If we're not careful, not all companies do that, of course, but there is that, that element. And then I think there's an element, you said it beautifully as well, that, um, Yeah. You know, sometimes I think as let's take designers, we think that if I just spend more time in Figma, I'm going to be a better designer. Well, the reality is actually if you spend some time outside of work exercising. and reading and, doing hobbies, athletics, whatever. Guess what? All of those things are part of that calculus to become a better designer, a better working human. and so if it's, if it's not family, you know, there are other things that matter in your life and, and you should not be ashamed to make time for those things. And you should prioritize those things because you are going to be a better Whatever your trade is by being more balanced than you would be otherwise.

Brad Frost: I'm so glad you brought that up because I would love for you to speak to how you've accomplished that. 'cause you not only are in the digital world, uh, obviously we spent a lot of time, you, your dad, your digital leader, all that good stuff, but you also make a bunch of stuff and do a bunch of other things and make physical art and and products and things like that. Can you talk about like those those activities help shape. everything how do you see different dimensions to your design creative self? does that shape your life?

Cameron Moll: Yeah. I mean, I've been doing these letterpress posters for a very long time, right? Where I re imagined buildings and bridges as if they were designed by letters and numbers and so forth. Most recently I put out into the world these do its. This is, uh, you know, the form that I've used, the method I've used for a very long time now. And you've got some there and I've got some on my desk too, it's great. I don't know, you know, when I think about why do I do those things? I think at the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that we're makers and for a very long time, as long as I can remember, I've been making stuff with my hands. And some people ask me, how did you get into the industry? And I'll tell them I didn't take any design in high school and college, you name it. It was none of that. I graduated with a degree in business management. But what I did do growing up is I was constantly working on my go-kart. I was woodworking. I flew a lot of model airplanes growing up, and so I was constantly building those and repairing those and so forth. And so using my hands to synthesize ideas, playing drums like you, you know, playing music for a very long time. I think since fifth grade is when I started synthesizing beautiful outcomes with our hands has been important to me. throughout my entire life and continues to be important to me. So I don't know if I could say I do those posters and do it now and these other physical goods, because I believe they're going to lead to me becoming a very financially adept person through these activities. It's like, I don't know. I just love making stuff. And for me, this is another way to scratch that itch of making stuff. And if other people can appreciate it, man, that makes it feel even more rewarding. But even if they don't. I don't care. I've got stuff in my house that only we as a family see, and I'm super proud of, you know, and so if nobody appreciates my posters or do it, I'm okay with that. I feel good that I've expressed that, you know, this carnal desire to create or whatever you want to call it.

Brad Frost: I love that. And I think that's so important for other people to hear. I find this thing that tends to happen is that people, myself included, and I'm susceptible to it. It's like, oh, well, I'd love to make art, but I'm not an artist, or I'd love to make music, but not a musician. I told myself that for a long time for for both art and music because of a preconceived notion of what an artist or musician does.

Cameron Moll: Um,

Brad Frost: a, I'm just an accountant. I couldn't possibly, you

Cameron Moll: Okay.

Brad Frost: exposed

Cameron Moll: Um,

Brad Frost: Like where the hell do these

Cameron Moll: You

Brad Frost: in? To to to the bigger like narrative, right? and I struggled with that myself yeah, what I'm hearing you say is it almost sounds like you just let it go. You just let it go and let yourself enjoy act of making.

Cameron Moll: I guess so, but, uh, I gotta tell you, I feel guilty when I spend, if it's not work, it's not family. You know, if it's not, uh, very active in, in roles related to my religion that keep me busy outside of work as well. So if it's not like one of those three things, I feel guilty. I was like, should I be spending time in this poster or should I be, you know, sitting down to play drums or whatever? Cause there's like other things I need to be doing. But I think it's the act of, of forcing ourselves to make time for those things that we might feel guilty about that actually contribute to not only us being a better designer, better father, whatever, but just enjoying life more. You know, I love the fact that you're posting videos all the time of you playing bass or playing drums. And I'm like envious because one, I would never be, I think, courageous enough to do that myself. Um, but two, I'm like, this is awesome. I love that Brad. The person I know to be this remarkable creative individual, you know, awesome and creative. Yeah. One of the, the best, if not arguably the best design system expert in the world. And yet he's playing drums, he's playing bass, he's throwing this event. That's all about music. And, and, and I'm, I'm almost envious that you're make among your busy schedule. And somehow that, that is important enough to you that, that, that is a priority.

Brad Frost: Yeah, well, thank you for for saying that. But like, I'll just say, boy, I feel it as well. What I've been trying to do has been trying to sort of rupture Those things and those activities and and even just like I'm, just gonna sit here and noodle and record it and like that that can actually be the span of five minutes That I'm doing that before my guilt bells start going off and I get back to my stuff. So yeah, I, I feel that same pull into the thing. Here's the things I should be doing, but holy smokes, you're exactly right. It's like, these are the things. are joyous. These are the things that are free. They're not tethered to anything. I'm not making money off of this. I'm not trying to. It's just this sheer pure act of creativity. To be able to remind ourselves of that and to have something that is this kind of pure exercise in just making something. We need to all give ourselves more permission to do kind of stuff, there's a lot of forces. In the world, that are keeping us away from Things that are exciting and joyous and whatever, and I see people absolutely riddled with guilt and, magical rectangles in her pocket, like you said earlier, would like to remind us every day about the state of the world all of this stuff, and it's something that I've been like sort of with myself, but I've also feel like I've kind of broken through a little bit to allow myself To have these moments of joy and creativity and all of that because like at the end of the day I could show up I could care about all of these things I could point money in my attention and try to do what I can but ultimately these things are beyond my control Right. And and with work and life and family and all my other obligations, like, yes, that requires my my time and attention. And I need to do a good job. But also, this stuff is there. And in those moments, I'd be curious to get your take on this, like, you allow yourself to just show up to, yeah, a letterpress thing or sit down behind a drum kit or just do tinker in any capacity, guilt aside, it's like, for me, those little moments help buoy help sort of carry me through. Some of the more challenging aspects of life, right? It's like, it's like

Cameron Moll: Yeah,

Brad Frost: to having to be assaulted with the news or sort of personal stuff or business stuff or whatever. It's like, there's there's hard stuff to deal with. And just kind of even like knowing that that's there. it's a sanctuary.

Cameron Moll: think it's vital. I mean, it's absolutely vital to, to cope in some ways to, to maybe help process what's happening in the world and in some cases turn off what's happening in the world, right? Just step away, be in your zone and your element and just get lost in playing a musical instrument or designing something that's totally off the wall, you know, whatever it might be. I think, you know, that now that we're talking about this, I think there's some degree of. Like the letterpress posters. That's like one of the very few things in my life that I have complete control over. You know, even my wonderful marriage and family. It's a partnership with my, my dear sweet wife and work and, and you go down the list and all of those things are. co relationship activities. But when it's, when it comes to those posters, it's just me and illustrator. That's it. And I think there is some, some liberty, some freedom in that where I can get lost in a world that I completely control. And so I think there is goodness for every one of us, no matter our circumstances. To have something that we feel complete control over. There is something liberating about that. And there's something, I think you call it escape, call it whatever you want. There is some really good goodness in just saying, this is my thing and I don't care what anyone else thinks.

Brad Frost: Yeah, oh that's beautiful. I think that that's so well said. It's like, It's self expression, self exploration, there's a lot wrapped up in that thing, whether it's, yeah, you, you're cooking, or you're, whatever that thing is, and I love how you, you brought it up, like, like, being in the zone, like, that's just such a, like a strong signal. That's that's just like such like a core part of who you are So it's like seeking that out finding that when you have it able to experience that is so healthy on so many levels But I love how you're saying that that is just like so many of our other I mean the rest of our conversation has been how do we interact with others? How do we how do we balance? How do we do all of this? Yeah to just have something that's just Yours you don't need to bother anybody in order to do it. I feel like doing this. I'm going to do it. I did it. Holy smokes. What an empowering thing

Cameron Moll: Yeah. And for those that suffer from depression and anxiety, this is a very important outlet where you can feel in complete control. You can be free of criticism from others and just live in that space for whatever period of time that you choose to live in it.

Brad Frost: That's amazing. Yeah, it's such such great That's I'm really glad we went there. This is great. This is great. This is exactly the conversation I was wanting to have with you. So so thank you

Cameron Moll: Man, this has been great, Brad. It's so good to, to have you drill me with these questions that have caused me to kind of contemplate, you know, why I am who I am. But, uh, the fact that we've connected over some things that I hope will resonate with people that have been listening to this, that have, are either at this same stage, And maybe had some questions coming in. Maybe they didn't know they had the questions coming into this that they that they had. But especially for those that might be earlier in the process of everything that we've talked about and giving them a glimpse into maybe what they can be looking ahead to. So I'm so glad that we've touched on what we've touched on is not the conversation I would have expected, but it's been absolutely the conversation that we not only should have had, but I've really enjoyed having it.

Brad Frost: Uh, same, thank you. a couple things before we wrap up here. the first is Perhaps there's no surprise, but music is a big part of both of our lives. So what music should more people know about? Who have you been digging? Who have you been excited about?

Cameron Moll: This is a funny question to answer because I'm like, I'm going to be embarrassed to answering this question. Right. If I say like Taylor, Taylor Swift or something like that, I don't listen to Taylor Swift, but it's basically along those lines, I'm a very eclectic listener. And so I think things like Apple music and Spotify have been just an absolute blessing for all of us that want to discover, you know, very bizarre, but also popular music. You look at the spectrum of orchestral music to choral music to country to you name it. There's, there's most genres that I probably listen to. So here's the kind of embarrassing part. I've been listening to a lot of Zach Brown band lately.

Brad Frost: Oh, yeah.

Cameron Moll: I love their stuff. And there's something that just, when I listen to their music, I just feel joyful. And, and so any activity, whether I'm designing or I'm out in the hot tub or you name it, I just, I'll sometimes put that on and I just feel happy.

Brad Frost: That's great. That's amazing. That's nothing to be embarrassed. Here's this music that makes me feel joyful, and you might feel that too. So, that's,

Cameron Moll: would never

Brad Frost: it.

Cameron Moll: thought I'd be answering that, giving that as an answer on a recording like this, but there it goes. So maybe someone else will find comfort in the fact that Cameron listens to Zach Brown band and that's, that's completely okay.

Brad Frost: Well, that also comes with age. It's like we just get to be like, ah. You know, stop trying to be like cool. And it's like, oh, I've discovered this new, you know, underground, Polish death core band or something like that, that only three other people have heard, it's like, there's a reason why popular music is popular music hits us in a certain way, and it's like, once we allow ourselves to be open to the possibilities of, well, a lot of this music that Tends to have a lot of it's it's usually it's always it's always the stuff around it or the perception of it or the culture around it, gets in the way of like, if you were to just sit and listen, you'd be like, Oh, man, this is great. Like, this is great. If you just like, allow yourselves like strip away. Strip away whatever you've read, whatever you've heard other people say, like if you just like show up and like listen to some music, no matter if it is that choral music, orchestral music, country music, whatever. It's, it's so cool. It took me a long time to get there, but that's a skill worth developing. Because there's a lot of great music out there. Is there a specific, uh, Zac Brown, uh, band, album, or song that, is, is a favorite?

Cameron Moll: So I'm a sucker for Spotify's, this is blank playlists, right? So they'll put compilations. So that's usually my go to. They've got a lot of great tracks in there. I think they're great. And I just put that on and I've listened to that probably way too many times. I'm surprised in my rap that that didn't come up as my number one artist. I think it might have, I know that I say that. Cause I did listen to it a lot last year and I still listen to it a lot now.

Brad Frost: Beautiful, beautiful. Well, that's great. Well, I would, I'm probably going to end up like compiling, you know, a little like playlist of the people stuff. So So thank you for being here. Last question is like, where can people find you? Where can people find your, your stuff, your work, your writing, your, your whatever you want to promote?

Cameron Moll: Yeah. So at Cameron mall and most social media channels, shop. cameronmall. com for the posters and, and do it. Uh, those are the, the, the best places to find me, my website, cameronmall. com of course. So I hope to connect with some of you if we're not connected already.

Brad Frost: Heck yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here. This is an absolute pleasure and, thank you all for, for listening.