Finding Balance in Design, Creativity and Life with Aaron Draplin

Welcome to Wake Up Excited! I'm Brad Frost, and in this episode I talk with the designer dynamo, Mr. Aaron Draplin. Aaron is a legendary graphic designer, putting his distinctive thick line mark on seemingly everything under the sun, logos, posters, hats, shirts, toothbrushes, the United States postage stamp, and of course the iconic Field Brands Notebooks. Aaron and I met many years ago, and I've always resonated with his authenticity, which really feels to be born from growing up in post-industrial America. And perhaps working class America is also why I've always been attracted to this very seventies retro graphic design aesthetic, which really is the Draplin Design Company signature style. So we have a long and hilarious and meandering conversation where we talk about the double-edged sword of work and success. We talk about work, hustle, and burnout. We talk about the ongoing tension of overcoming a scarcity mindset, even whenever you achieve a certain level of financial stability. We talk about redefining what success is and what really enough means. We talk about letting go of things, decluttering and simplifying your life, and we really talk about aligning your life to your intrinsic motivators rather than being pulled around by a bunch of external pressures. We also talk about life transitions and taking care of the people in our lives, and I also give some advice to Aaron on how to successfully plan and execute a sabbatical. There's a lot to dig into, but before we do, I just wanted to remind you that Wake Up Excited is a real labor of love, and this whole affair is totally self-funded. So if you want to support the show and support me and my work and my family, I'd love it if you checked out our online courses. We have a comprehensive course all about design tokens. We have a new Atomic Design certification course And we're about to announce another exciting course that I will be sharing soon. I'd love it if you checked out our online courses at bradfrost.com slash courses Now without any more windup, here's my conversation with the one and only Aaron Draplin.

Aaron: By the way, I said no to all the other podcasts, ' but you being a, a wild bass player, and a and a dad to a little Tea cup human, a beautiful little baby, A little who's maybe not a baby anymore, but I see how you celebrate your family, I don't give two shits. What you do for, you you know what you're like for me, a Cabell sasser. do you know him

Brad Frost: No.

Aaron: from Panic? Panic is the FTP guys here in Portland. They did transport and a bunch of things. Anyway, he's one of these guys so smart. smart, such a sweet guy, employs a bunch of his buddies and is always doing something interesting, and has incredible stories about like he talked with Steve Jobs 20 years ago or something, and they offered him something. He was on the forefront of all this math but He's an enigma to me.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: a little of that too, because that's like, well, I met you, you weren't this like go-getter that was gonna like put a knife to my throat and off you just talk to me. You know,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: well, here's who I am, here's what I do. I get a lot of that. I'm good with it. But all these years later, you're still a bit of a mystery. But when I see you, I don't tune into whatever, I don't even know what you do, Brad Frost. I tune into seeing you ripping on the on drums or things, enjoying time with your little girl or, you know, whatever, whatever. You know, it's like,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: to me. Around here, that's all we've been talking about,

Brad Frost: yes.

Aaron: to slow it all down.

Brad Frost: And that's exactly what I wanna get into because it's just like, oh, you're a kindred spirit. I know that you are operating in a similar way and have a similar set of values. And you're real. And I think that that's the thing that this whole show is about. Like, as somebody who doesn't really give a shit about podcasting. I have many vehicles for disseminating real and practical information. And this ain't it. We'll get into it, but this is all born of, I feel like, the same frustration that you let me know about in your response to my invitation for you to come on here.

Aaron: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I wrote it down. It's like, fair warning. But I wanna pick at what you've already started talking about is what has you waking up excited right now? What's what is new and exciting in the world of Aaron Draplin?

Aaron: Well thank you. You know, everybody all 777,000, all seven viewer listeners and viewers, all seven of you listen up. Press record. the last four summers. like a do Like a dumb ass, I piecemealed a new website together.

Brad Frost: Okay.

Aaron: Now, understand this after we're talking about decade plus of being berated by Brad Frost all over the world. Not you didn't do it, just say intelligent people who understand that if you have a good website and an up to up to date website, you can get a little farther these things. So I have these guys. Any number of interventions at these gigs I go to, we need to talk to you, aside, and here's three turkey dicks from Turkey Dick Design, and they're gonna rebuild my entire site. And we're gonna and repopulate and Oh, I don't, I put money on the table.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: ago and said, okay, well then do it. Let's do it. And then the ex excuses started. I've put money on the table because they had a proprietary Zim Zam that they were gonna sell me. The excuses start. So you just step back from that and you go, you know what? This hunk of shit movable type thing, it's still generating, I have to be Okay. with this much. Whatever that this much was, it was a substantial amount of merch sales.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: Now I can generate this much plus four more. I have to grow four more little fingers off this hand. Okay. So what I did was during the Pando, Dem,

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: a Squarespace. And we started to rebuild this thing. And I thought through just how that navigation or un navigation's gonna work.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I came to this very quick impasse, is this just about selling mergers, about showing all the shit you've done? And I just said, I'm gonna do all of it. And that's not very popular when smart guys come to you and say, well, we can put you

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: X, Y, and Z and you can sell this much stuff. see, they would look at me and they go, well, we can go look at abandoned carts and things and stuff, and we can see how you're frustrating people. Well, I mean, here's the scary part is like, Well, that's great, but let's say we get that right. What happens when I have to tell Lee, you have to work nine days out of the the five, you're supposed to work. girl, you know, Lee, my, my little smooch, helps me with the merch. We, you know, we are a two man band, two person band, and we work in the backyard. So that could have very well happened. So the last four summers I did, the first summer was like, just getting the basics down the sec. by the way, when the fall rips back into it, we are busy on the road, and then we're going to Adobe, and then the, the merch season starts, and then January, oh, it's so hard to be blah, blah, blah, blah. Next thing you know, I have a couple things in the spring and we're right back into these cycles, right? Next thing you know, you're 50 years old. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What the hell? In November 20. November 25th, after these four summers, we rallied this summer and I've put this new site up and I'm just here to say it works. Squarespace, but one half is everything I've ever done. It took a long, the rock and roll section alone is 48 chapters. You know what happens when you go to sporting goods or whatever? That's another 60 what I mean 60 things I have to show well, you have to find the things you gotta shoot 'em, You gotta talk about it. You gotta get the dates. Okay. Okay. Okay all this Well, I did that on the other hand bit of merch I've ever made. It's all up there So people didn't even know I had 140 hats 'cause the last site which was garbage from 2004 Was pretty hot shit in 2004, but worked. So one of the things I like to talk about on the road, have you ever heard of the Pocket Protector Gallery?

Brad Frost: No, but I love it.

Aaron: now what this is, some, some, some 19 94, 96 website technology. it still works. It still works. And here it's John, a Pope, Poman or Poman or whatever. Okay. Okay. this still works. If I wanna go look at a bunch of pocket protectors, he's still adding to it and the beauty, and we can make fun of the purple links and the blue links. So in some respects, when guys would come after me. I would say, go look at Poman. It still works. It doesn't work in your phone as nicely, but this is built before phones. So here's the deal. If you wanna look at pocket protectors, like I like to, you can go look. So how's it any different if a kid's finding myself? So all that, whatever. We launched that fucker November 25th. is working swimmingly . December is always our wildest month of the year. We worked so much in December, up to that December 20th cutoff or whatever. And by the way, all you 700,000 people listening, thank you for buying some shit from us. Thank you. Wally, we're gonna track your package down. We're, we're looking, I'll just send another one out if it doesn't find you if you're listening, because you know, a couple things went missing. So that is really this weird precipice you get to where you say, all right, it's all online. It's easier for me to show stuff. I am de platforming myself, which means like, don't have the heart right now the daily meanderings that I've showed for as many years as I've showed my Insta Grizz because there's a bunch of these fascists and shit running it. what happens if someday we woke up and if it, it wasn't TikTok getting turned off, which I've never really been interested in. So I, my heart wasn't all that tested. But what happens if it was Instagram that I made all my money on and showed all my bullshit. And you know, what, I, what are

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: people, smart people are doing. They're pointing at things, God, insufferable, insufferable. Look at me. Oh, how do I make this logo round? Or how do I make it fucking insufferable. I can't even look at it. So I'm, I don't wanna be one of those guys.

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what you're touching on though is there's an authenticity to stuff, right? And that's the big difference is that there's performative shit. There's marketing shit. There's like the Yeah, like literal tap dancing, tap dancing for stuff. But then there's the route that both of us maybe have taken is this natural extension of your being, right. And that's very interesting because it's very different. 'cause obviously like you are very incentivized to sell your stuff, as am I, right? We're both business owners and we're like, please give me money, right? Like, that's how this works. we're both incentivized to like, sell our shit, right? But there's a's an authenticity. the way the world isn't there and the way that you are on the inside there's this friction or incompatibility where it's like you could smell bullshit a mile away. You see a bunch of shitty people owning and operating these platforms and you're like, can't do it. Right? And I think that's really fascinating because it's this phenomenon that I bump up against seemingly every day of my life. And I wanna like get at with you. And the, the what you are working on. And I'm hearing this trend of like, I am downshifting. You even use that word. I use that word too. It's just like, oh my God, when you've been firing on all cylinders for so long, you hit this threshold where that isn't tenable anymore. But you're also like in this like kind of different season of life. And another thing I wanna get at, you did it a year sabbatical, like I did three months and I was like, man, this like changed me

Aaron: don't think I actually did it. I don't think I actually did it.

Brad Frost: at the end of the day.

Aaron: mean, I talked about it,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: is the lure goes into the water and you bite on that fucker because it's like, there's opportunities, there's things, there's jobs. Because I take care of my girl, I take care of my mom, I take care of my sisters, and then every now and again, my buddy, Dale. you put those all together, I, I got a lot of weight on my shoulders. One thing I wanted to say about what you were saying before, it's like, when I say de platforming, uh, the other day a kid wrote me and he said, Lin, I found your old flicker account. I never knew you had that much in there. And I hadn't looked at it in over a decade. I went back to it and I just scrolled through some shit. what I loved about that, it was like an Instagram. It was just a way to show things now, but there was no incentivizing, Hey, come, maybe they'd come buy some DDC stuff. But I just liked the sharing and the sort of back and forth. If you take it one step before that, used the shit out of my MySpace. share things and show 'cause someone could click through a bunch of images and see what I was finding on the road and learn from that like I did. I did that with my Instagram the last 12 years they're freaking me out. Whoever owns that whole thing, meta or whatever the hell, you know, fine. So how do I pull that back? Because if you're interested in my little take on junk or old things or slowing down, you can come to the Draplin.com and dig around. That's, that was my ask for the guy. was like, and whether or not I get L licks, clicks, likes, links, dons, I don't even know what the metric is anymore, how many I got, and I don't even give a fuck. It was just fun to share. When I pull back now, I still have to post things I did a thing yesterday for Ann Arbor because I'm going to speak there. I promise that young lady, I would post so people would get the word out. There's lots of comments and there's people planning and they're driving from Indiana. and They're gonna come from Cleveland over to see this, this show. I'm doing an so it's a tool, but like, how do we pull that thing back, you know? So as part of trying to be creative, how I do this, I don't wanna just come and say, I'm gonna turn everything off, and then that's just not realistic. And then I'm going to go build a cabin in the woods and be a hermit. But in summer, there's something romantic about that, but it lasts about three days, when you can't get into your Wells Fargo or some shit, you know, it's like, how old are you, by the way?

Brad Frost: you celebrated and I celebrated 40. Yeah.

Aaron: your party. Okay, you had your party. Right, right, right, right. So I did see some photos looked pretty fun. does it freak you out? the, the stuff that when we go on the road and people say to me, okay, you are an open book. We can ask you anything. What scares you? And I'll go, let's talk. Um,

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: being broke, I know what that tastes like a little bit.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: And, uh, I'll never go back to that because in my thirties and my forties, I worked my ass off. So now do I continue to keep that beast going? Cause it's harder and harder to do it. Or do I just start to coast on the little acorn pile that I, I collected for the winter because how do we creatively, like what if I was just to say, fuck it, frost, I'm retiring. Let's go do the math. So I've been really interested in those scenarios. Now, I don't know what I would do with all my time, but it probably has something to do with collecting legos and other stupid little tri trivial things, learning things on my guitar, uh, putting records on walls, putting them on that. Record player and doing stuff like that. Those are the things I enjoy. So a lot of what I've been talking about on the road is when they go, well, what, what gets you out of bed? Joy, what do I just enjoy? What delights me now? I make some fun things? Like middle aged t-shirts and shit that make fun of these dumb ideas that bring delight and joy to someone else and make a little buck to keep the lights on. The answer is you can, but I don't know, if my heart is in it to solve people's logos and stuff anymore. The moment you open that fucker up, they're stopping you. They're starting you, you're in holding patterns. Oh, you're on phone calls about phone calls, emails about emails. When, what's interesting? If I only make my own dumb shit, you know, not even Draplin Design, like I I made a sticker that said, be easy,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: You'll with it. But I never saw another sticker that said that. That is a, uh, a rumination for me. To slow my life down

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: and maybe someone would buy that and say to their spouse or to their partner or their buddy. Hey be easy You're making shit too hard and then we think about you know on some level of I make a little buck off that little bit of entertaining or something? So we you know We've been talking about that because I gotta tell you in the last month It's been hard to get out of bed because I have to chart a new course

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: chart a new course It's scary and I don't I know it's not involving being stressed freaked out Getting on planes, getting off planes. You know, I know that you are a Brad Frost. There's only one of those and you're probably in demand to go talk and speak and do things and make things and do things, you know, got to be one of those for a lot of years, but how do I just turn it off? It's okay to turn it off and graciously say, you guys around. Thank you. You know, hopefully I, I sh shook everyone's hand. I was nice to everybody. And then how do you, because here's the deal. And I always say this on podcasts. I've been in the back stages I've seen the guy who didn't quite know that his shit was done and they're fighting it. And they're mean. The 51-year-old is mean to the Brad Frost who's 40 and a half because he is got some new thing that's coming up. And it's like, that's just somewhere I drop off and you keep on going until you drop. instead of you being told, you're done. How about I just stop it? we've been just having these conversations about like, don't take the bait on going to this next hot shit thing. You're gonna be on the plane for a whole day. to eat, hard to, you know, you know, et cetera. You're gonna spend a great day in Omaha, Nebraska with all the youngsters, you know, for a whole day on Thursday. back on Friday, man, you lose two days of your life, getting there and coming on back now. The way I creatively dealt with that for the last 575 shows you can see 'em all they're all listed on the site I would work on the way there and I would work on the way back And when I would get there They wanna go to the coolest monosyllabic restaurant. I'd say I'll just go back to the hotel I'm gonna work tonight get all my shit done so I can spend thursday with you guys right now. So I did that. I creatively used my time to kill knights and birds with one stone. But see, harder and harder to do. So what gets me out of bed? The idea of like, today I'm just gonna clean my shop. no paycheck that comes from that, but I, I have paychecks in the bank today. I'm gonna work on uh, you know, Oh, I gotta be careful. I just go off the phone with some folks from, um, rhymes with Rone. I got off the folks with some folks with Pantone about who knows. And it's an interesting conversation because it's like, Hey man, if I can figure out something, I'll pitch you. But if I don't, it's okay. Still using the shit every hour. How can I tell that story to a kid? Uh, I don't know,

Brad Frost: You're picking a couple things. There's joy your core value there it is. Now how do you apply that in the world and how does that application change over time? That's really interesting because there's a season to grind as hard as you can and earn as much big bucks as you can so that you have the acorns lined up. But not saying like totally mission accomplished, but are whole things about those fire, like financial independence, retire early, where you bust your ass and get that little nest egg going and then you can downshift or turn it off entirely or just go build Lego sets or whatever, right? It's fascinating to me because I'm literally in the exact same position as you, Erin, like right before today I announced that I was like. Leaving the company I was helping run for the last couple years, and I'm going off on my own. And my intention is to do anything I feel like, like I've been doing client services work, I've been working for companies for 20 years. Right? So not as long as you, but just like you were saying earlier, it's like the logo comes in and then there's the emails about the emails and the thing about the thing. And there's this intrinsic motivation that I think maybe we both share that we know that we can just do whatever we want or what we feel like and we know that it'll have like decent outcomes. Some of those things will make you money, some of them won't. But there's this over dialing Oh, on the money thing that kind of ends up getting in the way. That's when you see those people who have been working the career that they've had for 20 years and they suddenly wake up one morning and they realize that they wasted their lives. Right? 'cause they've over dialed so much on the stability that money provides at the expense of living a. More joyful or fulfilled life. It's fascinating to me because like what I see is a lot of people, whether they're kids or people like a little further down the road, they're all still like doing that, dance. And when people like us come along and have them dig a bit deeper and remind them of the cosmos or remind them of our place in all of this or that you're allowed to think however you want or do whatever you want. And there's no permission slip, like we have agency, we have the ability to just make things with our hands. And if you wanna learn guitar, then learn guitar and do it. If you wanna figure out how to bake, then do it. Like, like there's literally nothing stopping people.

Aaron: How do.

Brad Frost: Which, which is real, right? Like it's, it is a real thing. It like, these are absolutely real things, but people use that as an excuse to. Deprive of the joy of, of living, right?

Aaron: Have you ever like met someone and you're like, you don't worry about shit, but we're missing something here. How do you cover insurance? This that, and you come to find out it's just a bunch of family money.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: like, Oh, fuck off. You didn't tell me that. came down on me. You worked too much. grappling. You didn't tell me

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: such a leg up on the rest of us. then you played that you, you spent that currency in a different way.

Brad Frost: Yep,

Aaron: here because come from that. So

Brad Frost: yep.

Aaron: response of like, Oh shit, I gotta take care of my mom. I gotta take care of Lee. But what happens you get to a point where you're like. I might have enough to just cover things for a long time

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: I kinda recalibrate to make things a little easier on old job number one, you know, never in my life. did I think I would get to a spot where I was like, I'm ahead. But that happened in 2009 where I paid off the last of my school loans.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I paid off my house. and it

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: like. I haven't had a penny of debt since 2013

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: Things come and go. You built

Brad Frost: Sure.

Aaron: back here. And I paid five installments of cash to my buddy Robbie who built it, quarter of a million bucks, 50, 50, 50, whatever, five installments. But at the end, my accountant yelled at me and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're getting a loan because the Draplin Design company's gonna rent this from Aaron Draplin or the other way around I don't know how they do it. But it's legal Beagle. You're a S corp and you're rent. So this thing is weird Write off, but it Steves me out cause I had it paid off,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: But, that money came back into my account. And then every year she shows me the benefit of having that. Okay, that's what adults do. So, for me to simplify my life and have this c change, what that meant for me was that's when I started to be able to dream 9, 10, 11, 12, because I got away from this, how the hell am I gonna pay for everything? Well, now I figured out how to pay for it. How do I just go and take more of that? But when is it too much? See, that's what we're running into. And it's a weird thing. So it's kinda like you're guilty that you're not taking every job. Podcast, interview, Zim, zam this up, down. Right? You know, you feel guilty because how dare someone who comes from what I come from, say no to any of this shit. I just did that for 20 years. See, you've had your 20 years, 'cause you started younger. I started at 19, but it was to go snowboarding for five years. And then five years of education, couple years of cutting my teeth and then, then I started at 30. So see, here's the thing, I've met a couple people along the way who are 62, say things to me like, I just listened to your talk. I'm gonna tell you, you touched on a couple things where you said, why do I have to wait around to start enjoying my life? Well, I've been enjoying my life. See, first of all, it's not like you're at a factory where you hate yourself sometimes maybe affect your job is awesome. You got to make your life being well, creating successful well, you did it for, you're gonna do it for yourself now, but you did it for other people and clients and companies and things and stuff. It's, I got to be a cake decorator. It's really hard to blur those lines. How dare I worry about burnout when I get to be a fucking cake decorator? Or you get to be a Brad Frost and come up, work with, look at that little dog in the back. What's the name of the dog? Okay. Okay. Yep. Boots. You Look at little boots. Don't even open your eyes, dog. Take it easy. I love dogs that stay on their side. I love dogs. certain geometry, don't get up boots. Um, but, uh, it freaks me out because it's like in the last year and a half,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I've been getting off the streaming train of oh, I need to watch this program my heart just gets broken. 'cause if shit sucks. So that means following Game of Thrones. following these sorts of things. So I've just backed off from that shit,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: like to watch ET, and I like to watch uh, Raiders of the Lost Ark. If I'm, you know, feeling that need for that kind of, to scratch that itch. YouTube, I went and got the premium thing. It has been an amazing little therapist for me because I'll just type in until I'm 59 and a half to get what I've, I've amassed a motherfucker of a S-E-P-I-R-A,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: Every now and again you'll see the shadow. It's looming right behind me. You'll just see it just, you know, wash over me this big shadow of Okay, well, I gotta get to 59 to have that.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: There's other shit that I can just use right now. So you have to understand me feeling a little bummed the last month. It's like, how do I get this? How do I pull off what I pull off all those years? I did a budget for myself. I know what my monthly number is just to exist,

Brad Frost: There it.

Aaron: and I've got that sitting in one account, one of these little aspects, for the next seven and a half years or eight and a half years until I'm 59. I don't have to work. And then when 59 hits, I get a big old shadow. Now that is some sobering shit because it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now on the moral level, I gotta take care of my mom. I gotta do the right thing and I'll go on this YouTube and I'll do these gentle philosophical meanderings and I'll listen while I'm looking at some old magazine or something I'm kind of just listening to it like a, maybe a podcast, but I'm using it like some little therapist I don't know. it's a privilege to even stop yourself and think this way, and then I feel guilty for that. Because what I know is you get those jobs, you be a good citizen. You deliver, and then you make sure that you provide good work and you get a paycheck, well, what if I slowed all that stuff down? This is where I'm at. And then you have to take stock. Well, I like playing with my Legos. I like playing my guitar. I like playing with myself. I like, I mean, whatever. You start going through all the things, it's like, well, what brings me direct joy? I'm so clouded. I like making logos and you can make money. How dare I say no. So check it out, Mr. Brad frost. I haven't taken any new jobs in 2025 'cause I've just been like, okay, I'm gonna clean this shop. I'm gonna pare down some things that need to be paired down. I could use a haircut. That's a problem. one of those court ordered haircuts where they take you and they go, just get the hair out of his eyes. You know, what happens is I don't keep my pace, then I get poopy.

Brad Frost: Sure.

Aaron: scaring me. So I ask you, getting

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aaron: go embark on this new thing.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: have to gimme social security numbers and bank accounts and shit, but you do

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: right?

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: Hey, good. Because I had guys pull me aside and say the first five grand you have in the bank, bank I didn't even have that in 2004 five grand, first five you have in the bank if you can get to there You have enough to go see your parents when you wanna go see 'em in Michigan and not not feel that at the time it Was about a 500 ticket when you get 10 grand in the bank You can go take a vacation. What happens when you get 50 in the bank? What happens when you get 500,000 in the bank? Now I'm not being braggy, but what I'm saying is I could be anywhere around that. What if I'm way over that? I only know how to operate in the $5,000 realm. Still, I don't, the shirt is like, it's on every fucking podcast. because it's a Cabela's Shammy shirt. I don't care. What's in style.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: haven't worn out yet. Lee makes fun of me. Aaron got a new pair of sweatpants this last decade, and that's me. I could go out and buy his what, whatever. But that's not what Fugazi taught me.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: these things with Ian Machai, he's wearing the same little shitty beanie he was wearing in this interview on that thing. There's a beauty. There's a a humanity. There's a um, a honesty to some of that. Okay. Okay. Okay. But I ask you, cause I had guys pull me aside and I really took that to heart because when they pulled me aside, I didn't even have five. I was still just getting up to speed and paying things off. Somewhere in here I have some shitty eight bit looking screen grab of when I paid off one of my credit cards in 2002, I had been carrying that credit card with 96 with a balance of seven or $8,000. 'cause that's just the system. That's the numbers. And they know they can get you in a pickle and. I wasn't fucking up, I wasn't drinking too much. I wasn't gambling too much. I wasn't getting in trouble. No, I was paying my monthly shit. There's no hand guide for any of this stuff. And I also don't want to become some creepy fucking Gary V Guru bullshit, you know? Oh, these fucking charlatans, man. They got him in design, they got him in coding. They got him in. They better not have them in records and Legos and shit. because I, it'll just ruin me. But you know, like can't listen to this Tony Robin schlock of how to get yourself outta the hole or into the hole, or know, you know, it's like,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: stop's the next.

Brad Frost: What we're talking about here is one, a scarcity mindset, right? That grow, that come that Eades from growing up in Michigan and in my case, my hometown is called Oil City, Pennsylvania, and it is where oil was discovered. It's where the oil industry began. Too much oil in Oil City these days. And basically heading back home is, is every year it gets Bleecker and Bleecker. And it is, it's rough. growing up in that environment shapes you just as you're describing here, I like how you said it, even whenever you have more in the bank, you're operating under this scarcity mindset, right? What's wild is I have other versions of that my, like my mother-in-law's from the Philippines. So like, you really wanna talk about grow up with a dirt floor and, and that shapes you and how you see the world and how you operate. And it sounds like the tension is for you if I'm hearing you right, is it's like that mentality is that you've actually used that very skillfully to become financially successful. But you're like, okay, I'm here. I get off the fucking train. You picked at the answer already. Whenever you go, oh, you crunch the numbers and those numbers provide the clarity even though you still can't fully trust them. And I'm in a similar situation where I think I've in pretty good shape, but you can never be too sure. Right? Even when you have the accountants go, no, you're good actually. You're like, I don't believe it. I don't trust you because I've seen when you don't.

Aaron: If You're a fly on the wall with my accountant and hearing me say things that are like, I wanna say, I don't wanna say immature but almost naive where I kind of go, am I okay? one time my accountant told me, Aaron, I have a guy that has 46 million. And he's a wreck. you don't have that, but you can do with what you've got, something wonderful. Learn from him. He's mean on the phone. He's mean to people around him. He hasn't had to work for a time.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: Where do I go Plug into some little field. Am I gonna be okay? There's no, you're gonna have to pay for a therapist. You're gonna have to pay for some creepy life coach. You're gonna have to pay for some little thing. No, no, no. Where can I just put a Google in? This is what's in the bank. Am I gonna be okay? Because no one will tell you that. because then I kind of go, okay, well, maybe I don't know what I'm doing. I need to step back buckle the fuck back down and say yes, yes, yes. And next thing you know, I'm on the road. Way too many times. It's fun. There's an improbable nature to that shit. But who, who's the sweet guy that I, I, I, you are synonymous with him, Dan, with the curly black hair. Dan Mall. I don't know what Dan Mall does, but I know when I looked him up, he's a smart guy and it was, he, he would mess with me. And one time we were at one of these interactive things where it was a UI crowd, Dan Mall was sitting right in the front row and he was kind of giving me these, like, Hey, draft, you know, he knows me enough to mess with me, you know? And I kind of go, oh, well there's Dan Mall, you know, got outta work release today, Dan Mall, nice to see you, Dan Mall. And I went, I go, let me warm up the crow while we're waiting for everyone to roll in. And I go, what's the, I grabbed the mic and I go, let's do a sound check. What's the old adage? you can't do graphic design, there's always UX. Click. And everyone damn was like, how dare he talk like that in the age of whatever. And I was like, just having a little bit of fun with the crowd. But you know, when I think of like a Dan Mall, like guy's got and, he was loose about it. There's a lesson there when I would kind of trade notes with him. I don't even know the guy that much. I just, I thought he was cool. I liked him he didn't carry himself too seriously until you went and looked at what some of the stuff he did and was like, oh, he knows his shit. He knows his shit. That's, that's really interesting to me. you know, what I, what I don't wanna do is turn this into some, like, I got the answer to it all. It's like, it'd be really more like if I had to go, like, try to I make a podcast that just says anything but design with Aaron Draplin. Who's afraid of going to the doctor? I am. You ought to see me in there. I go in there and I go, okay, I, all the tears all dried up. I'm ready for inspection. Any folder flap you could dig around it. You want me to drop the drawers and get into no man's land? Get in there. I don't know. submit to you. I, I surrender. And a guy's like, we're just checking your blood sugar. Just sit down. Aaron, we got the blood work back. Your leg has been dead since March. Oh, shit. there was no podcast that was like, here's what happens when you, you don't feel sick all of your thirties and forties you don't go in Like a jerk. But I was afraid. now what I'm proud to report is I've been in there three years. We're getting things right. The plumbing's better, blood sugar's better. I, I have, I have type two diabetes as they call it in the industry, and so does a third of everybody else, but I didn't even know. But we got it. We got it cool. We

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: control and we're working on it and whatever, you know, but at least I'm in the realm, I'm in the room. So finance wise, you get people to help you. You get people to do things. getting your head on right So, All we're discussing with my friends is like, what's our next route? Because you better plan it. You have the

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: to plan it. thankful for that.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: around you, but you're gonna have to work out some shit for yourself.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: And, I, I don't know where to go to, as I've said, as I've said 17 times. but finding a weird solace and just trading notes with buddies to say, Okay, well, I mean, you, do you have the, an do you have some answers? We don't, we're kind of collectively trading notes. And it's just a really interesting thing. That's why when I asked you you have some savings, right? Because you have to understand I do these workshops and shit. And I get a Brad frost. Who's got a bunch of talent, and a bunch of stuff. And he is like, I have two grand in the bank. And it's like, you are not allowed to quit your job until you have 10, 15, 20., Are you doing? There is no glory and compromised. a good job. Guess what happens when you leave your job? You have to pay for your insurance. I pay 700 bucks a month. You have to go to a job at nine o'clock and deal with some shitty guy by the water cooler. Shut up. Don't leave your job. You're not ready. So, you know, I get those guys who come up to me 'cause they heard me wrestling with my own shit and I, I go down the line. got some savings, right? I do. How's your house Look, you have a place to be, you know, running. Okay. Because those are all factors. When I went on my own in 2004, I had about 50 in the bank, 50,000. I saved a bunch up. I knew at the worst case scenario, I had my rent covered for about two years. So if I had to go back and get a Joby job job, I could. I had I had things covered 'cause I did the budgets. I remember one time a headhunter called me from the graphic design and branding industry and she called me and she said, Aaron ler, this was 2006 or seven. Now I'm gonna drop some numbers and you. guys better watch your toes because I'm gonna get braggy for a second. Anyway, this woman calls me up and she goes, we see what you're doing. We like your style. You have some talent. You know, we can plug you in, Aaron. This is the upper echelons of branding. It's an agency. You're gonna be on planes to go land jobs. You're gonna work on these jobs on the way back. You're gonna get back to the agency. You're gonna pitch things. On Fridays, they have casual, they have casual Friday. I, I said, I go, I, I said, I haven't worn pants all year long, she goes, I go, okay, tell me more. She tells me all about the job. She runs me through the shit, you know, you have to have a degree, you have to have this many years of experience and you have to be this tall and your face has to be this. And all sudden she goes, and by the way, let's talk compensation. And I go, oh, here we go, because you just built this thing up. I remember her saying, she goes they've got 87,500 for you. What do you think about that? Like, boom, drop the mic, you know, and I kind of go, ma'am, on my own, as a pile of fuck in my backyard, whatever technical terms I used, this was in 2006, I broke 200,000 last year, I worked with my friends. didn't have to get on a plane to go pretend some shit. I didn't even wear pants. And she just apologized and she went, you are very lucky. I had a job before. You can go look it all up somewhere. And they, I was getting paid 65 grand a year in 2004. When I said, I'm gonna go on my own, I'll give you a month and I'll as gentle as possible, jump out of this. They offered me 115 or a hundred, that day. And I was like, well, what about, the last two years? Where's that come from? Because they're only gonna pay you what they have to When I got on my own, that changed, but I had to do it strategically. So see, that was a sea change for me then, but the other way now is just scary. What if the joy is found in volunteering to help people around Portland. What if the joy is found in, a little old man who can't do his, uh, lawn.

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah,

Aaron: I'll do it. I don't know. I

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: the lawn, you know, I'll I'll go do the lawn, you

Brad Frost: But that's the thing the joy must persist because it, it is you, right? Like through and through, then how do you super impose yourself on whatever situation it is. Go in and helping whatever, frame a new house or, or Yeah.

Aaron: I mean, you've always had an incredible presence to what you do, positive and interesting take and space helmets and all the other riff and wrap. by the way, you gotta update that space thing 'cause that you were like 13 there.

Brad Frost: I got, I got a disco ball one. Now

Aaron: change the, change the budget a little bit. You know, and Bootsy has to take a bit of a hit. There we go. go. Wow. Because the idea is

Brad Frost: you could buy, you could buy a roll of mirror ball tape.

Aaron: wow. Yeah.

Brad Frost: For seven bucks. Seven bucks. You get a lot of it!

Aaron: Okay. Now wait, wait, I'm going off course. You started this thing for yourself. Are you already getting calls?

Brad Frost: So I'm going out on my own. But, but also not so, I've been my own thing since 2013 and I've been working , just as you described, working with your friends, right? To make cool shit happen. I've done my own version of that, but for the longest time, in my world, it's maybe more of a team sport then, you know, you could just kind of bang out some logos on your own and stuff like that.

Aaron: You're totally right. One thing I've always loved about the coding world, we'll just say, when someone has a problem, they post something and everyone would help them.

Brad Frost: dude,

Aaron: a certain,

Brad Frost: it's, it's magic. It's magic.

Aaron: it sounds kind of shitty for, you know, to graphic designers, but people like to kind of keep their stuff

Brad Frost: Totally.

Aaron: I never subscribed to.

Brad Frost: No, no, no. So I've been doing my own thing since 2013, but after a while we got tired of we're like a big Fortune 500 company. Like, can, can you. Spread singular help us. and I'm like, well, no, I, got me and all my friends . So it, it ended up making just good pragmatic sense to be like, well, let's just present as a company and then that will save us a lot of having to describe, these are my friends and like, we're here to help you. And don't worry, we've been working together for a decade. So we did that. And what's interesting is once that dynamic got set up, like, you'll appreciate this because man, if you want to talk about strong personal brands, you're probably it. I have my own flavor of personal brand or whatever, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, now I'm, I'm operating under this other roof. Those aren't my brand colors. But also like a business is shaped like this, right? The equivalent for you would be that agency, right? You're gonna do this brand design, you're gonna do this collateral, you're gonna do this. Lego sets aren't part of it. Cleaning up. The thing isn't, they are volunteering isn't part of it, right? But whenever you're your own being, you have full control, you have full agency. You very motivated by a number of factors. But we know that we need to keep the lights on, but we also know that track is only one track of life. And that in order to live a good and fulfilled life, you have to have a diversity of experience. Maybe you turn the knobs, you turn things up and down, you turn up the mids, you turn, turn down the base like occasionally or whatever, based on what season you're in. But just like you said, that 59 and a half or like all those people that are going through life and waiting for things to, to get good and to live life and to lean into things and to have hobbies and to be listen to good music and do fun things. People are like, I'll, I will do that afterwards. I mean, dude, my father-in-law, he worked and had that a attitude and then it is just sure as shit. Like any movie script, and there you go, and then you die. Right? And that's what happened.

Aaron: How old

Brad Frost: He was in his sixties. But but it's, it's the lesson, right? It is the lesson. And it, and it, it, it is a cliche. It's just unfortunately a cliche that I got the front row seat for. right? So my wife, she is pursuing an arts therapy degree, which is awesome. There's a million different ways you can apply arts therapy in the world. And she got an internship at a hospice. Literally last week, she's holding someone's hand doing a plaster cast of their hand as part of this thing. It's for the family, it's like healing for them . this person literally died as she was doing this like plaster cast. And it's like when you're confronted with. When, when we're all confronted with that massive life event that will befall us all, it puts things into perspective.

Aaron: my God. I mean, what what are the conversations like when the, when the little lady comes home. Years ago My dad, when he was still around, you know, um, one of his buddies back in Traverse City, Michigan, was this guy was a deacon. Now he wore the thing with the Catholic and that's a little intense, you know, but whatever. But that's fine, you know. Um, but he was a deacon what he would do there's no money for this. He gave me his business card because I was in the hospital I had my appendix out in 2011. And, you know, um, dad, his guy's name was Rene, Reem came by and he was gonna pray for me. I remember going, Hey, say a little something to the big guy upstairs and maybe it's the big girl upstairs. And just a general, uh, positivity because why are we the only Catholics and we're the only ones who are right? What about the Buddhists on the other side of the world? What the fuck Do ants die and go to heaven too? Are there lots of ants in heaven? 'cause there's a lot more ants on the, the fuck. praying for me, for me. But what's really interesting is when people would die, Rene would go in there and sometimes people are, isolated from their families and he's the last person that they know from this relationship of like, are you okay? Let me check on you. Do you need anything? Let me pray for you. me talk to the people and get them back in here. And sometimes they're just at the end the guy praying for them as they go over. And it was just like this wash of like, whatever fucking flavor you subscribe to of hereafter or whatever, that's real. And that was his job. And he had these business cards that you cut out from a template and they're all crooked and shit. So I went and made him this. you know, really somber with his digits and his stuff and basic email and this big, long geo cities email, some kind of, you know, space, web crawler dot geo, whatever the fuck, some long, you know, old personal email. made him a better business card because man, you gotta get that right. You're sometimes in the scariest moments of someone's life. Now listen, I don't necessarily wanna become a deacon, but there was a paycheck there, abstract paycheck that. That's why, you know, like my dad, you have to be of service on some level. Whether or not it's teaching kids about Adobe Illustrator or how to wrangle going on their own or whatever everything's about a paycheck, Aaron, I watched that exhibited in front of me as a kid. And now when it's my turn now to go make some changes. 'cause here's the thing, if I got my budget figured out, why wouldn't I, wouldn't I go and, and put stock and just watching the sun come up, or the sun go down? Why wouldn't I, because I'm caught this weird pressure system of like, you gotta keep earning. know what no one ever tells you is when you make a lot of money, have to pay a lot of taxes. Every buck you make at some certain points, you're paying 49 cents back. That hurts. Because I'm not, some multi corporation back here. It's no different, I'm certainly not one of them. But what happens when you get a 22-year-old kid who's making 6 million bucks a year, has to give back 3 million that first year? That's real with these some sports stars and shit. That's just real. and rollers, you know, I have no buddies who have been with Jack White and stuff and things and stuff and it's like you make a bunch of money, you gotta pay a bunch of tax. What if I slow that all down and the paychecks aren't necessarily steeped in what I was able to pull off or a good job. The paychecks are just smaller wins. You know, somebody needed some help. I mean, how do you even tap into that? Oh, I've, I've been on podcasts. I get these emails, people saying, Oh, come work for a nonprofit. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's just, I'll be back in the same slog with no paycheck. No,

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Aaron: You

Brad Frost: Right.

Aaron: where do you go? Just to say, utilize me

Brad Frost: And that's such a beautiful place to be. 'cause it is freedom and you are not short on ideas. I think that, like the thing with both of us is we've always been like, we've had these external things, whether it's big Fortune 500 company needing help with their design systems and their websites and stuff, or whether it's people reaching out to you about like branding and stuff. We're always dependent on this other thing to, to at least help us frame how we gotta spend at least some of our time on earth. When you don't have that, there's I think a real opportunity to be able to define . You have freedom and you have nothing but good ideas and great energy and what can you just point that at?

Aaron: Well,

Brad Frost: I think we've historically maybe needed other people to help us. Say like, here, here's what you ought to be doing. But it's like that, that just kind of comes from, from you. 'Cause it's coming from you and it's in line with your core values. There's no conversation that needs to happen. It's just your head and then your, your hands acting on it.

Aaron: This isn't anything new. I have to go and look back to when I was a youngster. I'd go up to Alaska and work up on these summer jobs. And I would go be a dishwasher for the summer. And you're up there with all these beautiful people. And there were two schools of thought. Mine was to buckle down because my first summer of 96, I went up there. worked five months on this train as a dishwasher. I did extra runs. Did that because over the course of a week you'd have two runs. But I would do, we'd have eight days, call it, eight day cycle. You do two up and down on the train up to Fairbanks, from Anchorage to Fairbanks and back. Take a day off, do two more days, and you'd have three days off. So if you take that eight day chunk, up and down, two, one day off, up and down two, now we're at FE day. Five, three days off, that's eight days. The three days that were off people would the money they made in the five days, they would go spend it. That was the first school it was like. Wait a second. You're not gonna take any time. You're not gonna take that back to the states.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: no, we're gonna enjoy our lives. We're gonna camp and fight and screw and shoot guns and catch salmon and all the other wonderful things they were doing that cost money. gonna have a great summer and I'm gonna work just as little as I have to, to have this great summer. That was one school of thought. Mine was like, I'm gonna hoard it all. 'cause on those three days that you'd add off, I'd put another two day run somewhere in there. So I'd get six of eight days. So, okay, so I did that. That's what allowed me to get my first computer. Here's the deal, and this is indicative of some kind of something that's, I don't know where this comes from. This is my question. why was it, I would hate Every second on that train. were cutting your hands. I was a dishwasher. You know, I use my hands to use a mouse and shit on a keyboard. So when I come back home, I have to get this computer and now I have, I'm armed with this new tool. But when we would get back each fall, it would take me three or four days and I would sink. I don't know if it's a depression, but I would have this weird emptiness of like, I gotta get back on the horse.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: And that comes from having a job when you're 13 years old, because my dad having to say to me, Aaron, we can't buy you skateboard decks every time you want one. They were, you know, 80 or 70. were into these records and CDs and things. Aaron you go work and you can afford those things for you. By the way, you, if you want that car, I'll help you get the car, but you gotta cover the insurance and the oil.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: We had this baked into us. When you see someone having a hard go around you, not necessarily my mom and dad, you take notes on that shit. So that is baked into me and it would happen in 97, 98, 99. Now I went back to school. So you go from working all summer, right back into school. There wasn't a gap. was productive, productive, productive, little tiny gap just to drive from Alaska all the way to Min Minneapolis to go to design school. I would get back to work. So what I'm getting at is last month

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: I've had a gap. We had a great 2024, I made money. donated, I helped people, I took care of everyone around me and I saved some extra shit. But when I took a gap, it started to fuck with me. Now

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: playing with Legos is fun And all, but it's not gonna keep the lights on. I'm studying why that affects me the way it does. Are you the kind of guy. Whether or not you have the big fortune five hundreds in a conglomerate of, of like-minded val heads and smart people to come and attack this thing as a unit, or it's just You. helping a buddy make some little thing. If you don't have the gigs, do you start to go crazy? Cause you can, I hey, I'll, I'll play the latest shit I've been working with on the guitar and you could play me some sweet bass riffs. But do you get skied out?

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: Because, because there's a momentum, there's a safety

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: actively trying to make myself uncomfortable and I've got some weird news, fucking scary kind.

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the opportunity. I'll say that I'm have turned a corner a little bit more on the scary part. And the way that I've accomplished that is by crunching the numbers, is by knowing what I need to do. Just like those people doing the three days or five days on. Okay, I know that this chunk is gonna get me through these next three days off and get me on these little adventures or whatever. There's like a bigger version of that, which is if you bust your ass and you put this much away. There's concepts of like, of the 4% rule where it's basically once you have enough money in the bank, you could safely withdraw 4% of that, it's never gonna run out you because the way that compounding interest works. Again, my small post-industrial mind still doesn't trust fully, but at the same time it it, that's why it's helpful to have people. And, and you described that with a, with, with doctors and with financial people, whatever. It's like you, you gotta put your trust in these professionals at least a little bit. Healthy amount of skepticism is also good too. But what that does is that takes the fear away. 'cause it's whenever we, I. Coming from where we're coming from are trying to tackle these things that we have no business tackling. Of course, it's scary, right? But I think that the thing that is fascinating is like by offloading that to people and making sure that you're crossing your i's and dotting your T's, that's that pressure release valve for the fear to dissipate. And you're left with nothing but your joy and your enthusiasm and your skills and your fun and your everything. So then you're a kid in a candy store because it's like going back through after you beat a video game and you get to go wherever the hell you want. You don't have to like earn it again. You get to play it with the cheat codes in there. But like when you've operated a certain way for a certain amount of time and that's the lifeblood and that's the thing that sustains you and your loved ones who that is. It's makes perfect sense that that would be scary to have that month long gap where you go, oh my God. Like is this okay?

Aaron: when you go back to Oil City and you see maybe buddies you grew up with and stuff, Does all this shit go out the window the moment you leave Oil City 'cause you're like, I've maybe seen a couple case that are a little freaky. I'm gonna go back home I'm gonna say no. because here's, here's what I've done. I go back to Michigan where I'm from. By the way, little Traverse City, Michigan's a cute little town.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: Now it's cool. The real estate's through the roof and it's a place people want to be. And isn't that a just of interest? But sometimes I'll go back there and see a buddy struggling or someone having a rough go or something

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: out west and i'm not gonna say no to a fucking thing because dare I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I heard the story of someone who got in some trouble or gotten a bit of a pickle or something bad happened How dare I? are all positive things. but what happens is the next thing I know, I just, I'm overwhelmed. I have too much. There were any number of times last year, and I'll show you, this is kind of fun. I'm just gonna do a real quick little, but you can see here on this little thing right here, there's only about four things on there because I don't have any jobs.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: But at, at any point in the last, the first eight months of last year, there were 16 and 17 things. There were 16 and 17 folders. In my projects folder, there were 16 and 17 piles of email to be dealt with.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: I'm in a holding pattern, still, they're still on the list. Other, we knocked it, out and we got it done in a, couple weeks. but that 17, how the, hell do. you get a website done or over the finish line when you're doing that, How do you take time to go on walks?

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: getting paychecks every other day. it's awesome. You get to put 'em in the mail. you smell 'em, you look at 'em and you put 'em in the fucking bank and you,

Brad Frost: but that's it. The trick is to take the 16, 17 clients and it doesn't need to be a, okay, now all of a sudden It's zero clients. what I've found to be really helpful is to actually treat my own shit like it is a client. I have to trick my brain to go, here's this thing that I want to do desperately. Like I've wanted to do this for so long. And it's always been on the back burner. It always gets pushed because there's always the paying gig that sort of comes through. And the real irony is that I think a lot of those itches, we wanna scratch, those things that we wanna do, all comes back around in the form of the money, just in a weird and indirect way. It's like the people that are spending their days just with a dull blade axe, just chopping down as many trees as they can. And it's like, I can't stop because I get paid by the tree. All they need to do is pull back and realize, oh, I need to sharpen my axe, or, oh, better yet, there's this thing called a chainsaw. So it's the perspective, right? Whenever you've been grinding for so long and you're like in the trenches and in the weeds, the perspective is the tree view. And you gotta see the forest view. When we look at those things that we know matters, right? The sunrises and the sunsets and the family and the connection and the, all that stuff. When you have those people on their deathbeds, like making those kinds of comments and we know it now, it's just the matter of like grabbing it and actually like committing to it. We need to give the same priority to those things that we know are important as we do to the client project, right?

Aaron: You can tell what a fucking animal I am, just how much I talk and how I can't even fucking form a thought on this fine podcast here to all the seven listeners tune in for what I'm about to say here. Here's the thing. Here, doctor. I don't, Brad I don't know you all that well, but comfortable to come here. When I go into my doctor, I'm a fucking wreck. I'm talking way too much. What do you mean I have to get a colonoscopy? All these things, these are Aaron, basic maintenance, man. They test my blood sugar with a little pick and I go, but I've been playing this one song and I do a little finger pick sometimes and they go, just gimme the fucking finger. it's like, can't you do it on my toe? Gimme your hand, and just, ah, zap it. And they go get the number. And I, we say, okay, there's is where you're at. But I asked my doctor this last time, I said, how, how much do you work? Because this was on December 18th. Christmas is coming up. Do you guys get time? And he goes, I'll be working on Christmas Eve. Like she was very matter of fact. And I said, oh, okay. you are rewarded for that, right? How much does a doctor make? So I went home and I looked up what doctors make. It wasn't that crazy? Remember when you were a kid? Oh, you're a doctor, you make all this much when you're a lawyer, you make all this much? you know? Now we've traded notes on some of these things. 'cause I'll just say when do you get time off, he works a lot. And yes, there's an interesting vocation to that he's helping me get a little better. It's pretty interesting. And I say to him, how many years did you go to school? Well, I went eight here and then four here, and then two with this something, EEMT. And then I did, you know, 14. I go 14 years of fucking climbing the mountain. this is what you get. Aaron Draplin here, getting ready to Take all his clothes off and let you dig around and all the folds and flap. I'd asked him was last time, I'd go, you've never touched me. Like, you know, like, uh, you know, like in your knee, you know, you've put anything on my heart, you know, like, listen or something. Or you've never checked the circumference of my big fucking meatball head. He's like, Aaron, we're just doing diagnostics with some of your basic plumbing and levels and everything's cool. This isn't just for a bunch of whiny graphic designers or maybe tech it's an everything And and when you go to some truck stop, you talk to a truck driver, If you ever see 'em jump out with the little round thing? They sit on a little donut thing. That's 'cause they have hemorrhoids. That's a little pro tip. If you're ever in the lot, you see them carrying one of those things. Are they facing the same things? Here's the answer. I don't know. I'm just trying to be creative with how I, recognize what's bunching me up a little bit and then make some gradual changes. So where does the energy go? I've subdued it the last month and I've been sleeping in and then here's a fun one, stopping the day at six and going inside and fucking around with Legos or doing the recycling. Why am I the guy in the neighborhood that brings his recycling out at 2:40 AM because I work late? So i've been trying to get the fucking recycling out on Thursday nights before eight o'clock to be a good citizen. That takes work.

Brad Frost: It's a reprioritization, it is a recovering, maybe workaholism is too strong of a word, but we're not talking about workaholism in the form of doing a bunch of wage work. It's like, God damn, we get to get paid for doing what we love and we're really good at, we're, we're respected for it and whatever. And so coming back to the privilege where of course we have to keep that going. Whenever people reach out to me about, like, Brad, what should I do with my life with like that, that's my other old Brad Frost inbox, which is the opposite of that. I got a bunch of people that reach out. And

Aaron: you

Brad Frost: you get

Aaron: You write 'em back.

Brad Frost: always,

Aaron: Me too.

Brad Frost: always, yeah. But it's, but, but the advice.

Aaron: my capacity. Because I'd See, that's why I asked you at the start of this. Do people ever push back and you because you might have shown a vague snippet of what some turkey was asking? No one's ever pushed back and They're probably embarrassed. But, I'll get these guys who, when they get my attention, they won't let go and they'll everything until I have to say, Hey man, I gotta get back to work. I mean, I get it. They're fans. They're interested. I I mean, I would probably do the same. I had Jay Maskus over here in October. He spent the night. He found one of the dead notes on one of my jazz masters. But I can't write him 47 times. After he left, I go see the next show. I'll go backstage. I'll get a high five. And if we go have a lunch or whatever, I'm on cloud fucking nine. But I'm losing my capacity. There's a certain humanity that you already answered and you said, you know, Aaron, I write 'em all back, man, if I had 70 cents for every time some fucking big ass designer or whatever said I don't do that, I'd have about 516 bucks. Because people love to say, how dare. I feel like it's like a price tag. we were lucky to get ahead and it comes with some stuff. Now people are gonna ask you for your advice, be a human and share that. I'm losing the capacity, but there were a lot of times there, man I didn't miss any school interview. These kids were the same six questions. Oh my God. But the kid who's like, I'm in trouble. Okay. Here's seven things do what you will with them stay away from these fucking podcasts that want your money They're gonna solve all your shit be careful with these guru assholes Watch out for the guys that are pointing the guys who these designer guys. They're pointing at things and they're going Hmm, How do I do this change? You know, you've seen that mode It's effective. Go look at their portfolio. You wanna see how good their tips and tricks are. Go look at their portfolio. If the portfolio shit, guess what happens in your portfolio shit? You gotta go point at things. Sometimes that freaks me out. So I'll tell these kids like, man, it sucks but hard work. It's just the way to go. You can't get a design job. Did you get a pizza job? Would you get a pizza job? Sucks. Well, What happens when you get back from your pizza job? You're gonna spend five hours a night like I did pedaling my bike to go use a computer at Kinko's. I did that. Everyone else went out drinking, fighting, screwing, and chasing chicks, chasing dudes, whatever it was. I went and you gotta find that in yourself. Now, kids don't wanna hear that, right? So I just find it interesting that you'll make that time 'cause it says a lot about you, you know, it's hard.

Brad Frost: I think that's the education. People just by way of get reaching out to you, they're reaching to an external source to try to get an answer to something. And all you can do is kind of hold up the mirror to them. And that's the gift. That's the advice. Right. And it's,

Aaron: met one of those guys years later who were like, dude, you were the only one who wrote back.

Brad Frost: that's beautiful.

Aaron: I put it, you know, like one of the things you hear in the last bunch of years is I went and applied to 171 places, places. You're the only one who wrote me back and said, Hey man, I'm a one man band with my girl. two us. Were little duo. We're white, white stripes, orange stripe, spot, orange skin tags. Uh, You see where I'm going with this. But Wow, are you that busy? You can't just say, hey, we're not hiring. There's a weird abstract thing because I get berated for that in these podcasts or not, uh, q, and A at some event or a workshop. Like, would you waste your time with that? And I would just stop 'em and say, if all I do is design, I'm gonna go nuts. I've been ending my talk with this. I go, life is an arc. over here you're born. Where's the Himalayan Mount Everest? Because over here you die. And when you die, that's the end. And over here is when you're born. So where's the high point? Because at the high point you don't recognize it. You might always be chasing it. So what if I just make sure that I'm on the old downward creatively and just embrace that? And be okay with it and accept it not play some game of chasing and let the Brad Frost who were gonna replace the Aaron Draplin or the Aaron Draplin who might have replaced, who did I replace? There were a couple I'm I'm sure. I promised myself a long time ago, I would graciously say, thank you for having me and then not be removed, but remove myself. Just say, Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. I got, I'm out, I'm out. See you guys. Thanks. It's been great. Go get the book. It's all in there. 'cause now I got these guys, 'cause we sold so many of those fucking books. When for eight years I've been asked, when are you doing it again? I have to say, that. who does the book every two years, you know, Zeldman or some shit probably, you know, but I got, I have to live for 10 more years and make a bunch of shit and then talk about what happened. I don't think, I don't even know if I'm interested in doing another one, you know?

Brad Frost: But that's just it. It shouldn't be, market forces are just you getting asked enough about it. It should be like does it turn you on?

Aaron: if I did it. just be like, here's ways to get ahead. Here's things not to do. Here's things, you know, your health insurance, you, gotta have that shit tuned up. I need to make a little change in my health insurance. you? should have heard this person on the phone who told me you didn't get the change in by the 15th. There's nothing we can do for you Whatcha gonna do about that? And I was like, why are you so tough with me? I didn't even know when I picked this shit five years ago or for whatever I was getting ready to get the courage to go up into the dock and all this

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aaron: know there was a rule for that now. I know but why are you mean to me? What

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aaron: do you have? The guy

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aaron: know, I said, isn't this all being recorded too? God dick. Guess what I do for Liv, for a living I've been sleeping in for the last month Take that, then I got off the phone with this But, you know,

Brad Frost: But maybe that's your own client project is, it's, is it's like there's all of the other things that have been back burnering for you. Is that a word? Back? Burnering, for, for a long time. But they're the real things. They're the nooks and crannies of life that don't get a lot of light. It's the unsexy stuff that, the confronting fear, navigating the healthcare system in the insurance system. That is the stuff of life. And I feel like in America especially, it is the, what, do you do for money? It just, just sucks the air out of the room and I find that there's just so many more interesting conversations to have, things to pick into, beautiful things, to explore music, to make music, to listen to art, to, to just enjoy. The depth of life is so incredibly vast and deep. There's this narrowing there's this like well worn track that is just this known thing called like work and like how you earn money. And the shape of design is the industry is this like just calcified known quantity. And it just feels, just so whenever you hear it for the millionth time, you have no choice but to just be disillusioned with it. Meanwhile, there's all of these other bands, there's all these other tracks, there's all these other things, aspects of life that are hard, interesting, beautiful, worth talking about, worth writing about, worth sharing worth, whatever.

Aaron: See what about at different ages, though? See, 40, 51, you know, it's like, I too old to go and just change up some stuff? So here's the thing. It's like, instead of saying, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go be an exotic dancer. Now, you know, could be hard living off 11, 11 bucks a month. No tips. You know, it's like, it's like, uh, a person that really had. A momentum in, in illustration and design and then just turned it all off a couple years later. I got a call because he was still doing client work, but just wasn't showing it to the world. And he's like, I have no compulsion To have to share this. I don't owe anyone anything. It was a really hard and weird chat where it was like, that's what everyone does. You show it, you get people excited, you talk about it, you get comments, you go back and forth. He was like, but why? And I gotta tell you, he was way ahead of the curve. He saw it for what it was And interested in that weird carrot on a stick. Now this is about eight or nine years ago. So I've just tapped in a little bit. Every now and again I'll come on with some cryptic posts. And people will say things in the things like, Are you okay? Am I doing damage to my brand by not sharing every goddamn meal and every little logo I was playing with, whether or not I learned something, I was delighted. I haven't shown client work in years, unless it's Chris Stapleton. 'cause it's fun, it's big and it's all over the world. I just was too busy being interested in making logos or making a record for John Davis and his, you know, jinx record, which you go listen to if you're a super drag fan. What if I was just to turn everything off? I'm not trying to be some big alarming thing, but I just turned it off It's okay, I went and did other things . What no one ever talks about when you have a new initiative a new beanie, you gotta make Instagrams, you gotta put it on a reel, you gotta put it on a story. That was my experiment the last two weeks, three weeks was like, I'm just gonna do other things and I'm getting these messages. Like you all right, where are you? you start to become like an entertainment

Brad Frost: But, that's the dynamic that you're picking up on. It comes naturally to, obviously, but there's a threshold that gets crossed where it's like, Oh, yeah, this feels more like, like work. Or this is extrinsically motivated versus I made some cool shit and I wanna hold it up and share it with people. I've been having fun for like the last, like year or two finally starting to publish some music that is, it's not even done. It's just like, here's this little lick, or here's this thing. I feel compelled to just go, here's something. And, and there's no, like, I hope people even like it. I feel just this innate, you know, I, I, I made this right. And then, but then there's the sharing and the tap dancing because you have to, and it's the right thing, and I should do this. And, and that's different, right? And so what's interesting is that when we get closer to being able to have our realities and our day to day life more aligned with our intrinsic motivators versus. That's happening elsewhere, right? What do other people think I should be doing? Am I doing enough? Am I not doing enough? Am I showing up and dare I say, and I'll, I'll tread lightly here, but even when it comes to taking care of your loved ones and the people in your life that can cross a threshold where the guilt or obligation crosses the line and going from like care to, all of a sudden you're not taking care of yourself because you're like falling on the sword. what I am super pumped about right now I'm just able to go, cool, here's new existing in the world. Uh, what do I want to do? Obviously some of that needs to involve earnings A bucks, and I'll figure that part out. This is my hypothesis, I'll let you know where I land with it. Just by way of operating and doing what you're meant to be doing in the world, what's intrinsically interesting to you will all somehow feed back into the part that keeps the lights on. That's my hypothesis at least. I've got so many cool projects, like these things that are just like weird, totally like left field things. And some of them I've been working on for years. I'm gonna be like launching them over the course of this year. I'm actually doing some courses. So now I have a product to sell. Now I got my own drop in shop that I could like drive people back to. If you were to just be like, I'm just gonna post these Lego sets because I think it's fun and whatever, I bet you any money that's gonna sell you some field notes, it doesn't have to be explicitly like, please buy my shit. I think that this is what. Might de attract people to you. People I think are starved of, of joy and starved of happiness. And when they're able to sort of see it and recognize it in, in how you operate in the world, it, it has an effect. it.

Aaron: wait. it. works on me. it works on me. I get yelled at a couple times a year when someone says, why don't you have a YouTube? Because you know what happens when you walk in with a fucking film crew to your coffee place? say to you the next time you go in there, Hey, Hollywood, where's your fucking film crew? Or, you're one of these guys walking around going So here we are in Brad Frost backyard and we're gonna, you know, whatever. I just turns into this fucking production. And it's like, everything needs to be shown. But, humoring that and going, well, does that model look like? You know, we've come up with a couple little it's like "Anything But Design" with Aaron Draplin you wanna know what it's like to go to the doctor with me? I'm gonna show you. So if you see it go quiet on my Instagram, that could be due to politics cause that guy's creeping me out or cause I'm just not fucking shown it all. Do I need to make an announcement so people don't write me and say, is everything okay? And I just put a a little fun post that says, you guys, I'm okay.

Brad Frost: say, go listen to this podcast. It'll tell you everything.

Aaron: Yeah, I know. Right. I was so proud of my skill shares because I'd be like. This has to be accessible to a Brad Frost who knows what he's fucking doing. to a Frost Brad who's just starting out. How do we get both? 'cause I can't just go after the beginners. I can't just go after a bunch of experts. So we really tried to think about that. I'm proud of those things because Kids show me what they made and, and what they did and all the other stuff. But I don't need to make 18 of them.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Aaron: I'm running out of ideas, even though it's effective. So like Skillshare has kind of tapered down for me. It's okay. notes are still going crazy, you know, going on the road. It's just about non-existent. The only reason I'm going to Ann Arbor is 'cause my mom is 20 minutes from there and I get to go spend eight days with her.

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: If you want me to talk at Heartland, Michigan, I'll sign the papers right now because, you know, in Heartland,

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah,

Aaron: Ann Arbor.

Brad Frost: yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Aaron: know, we, I couldn't figure out the Buffalo one, but I've already been there three times.

Brad Frost: But that's just it. That's just it. You don't need to do the victory lap and the weird fitting leather pants, like when you're doing the Greatest Hits tour just because

Aaron: you know, there's

Brad Frost: you know.

Aaron: ways to monetize someone's downfall. ways to monetize someone's rise on the way up. And all of it creeps me out Like I'm, I'm, I'm doing this thing. For these gals in Australia coming up here and it's all gonna be about in my life of how I'm pairing things down. So what i've been doing? I've been grazing sections if there's some value to it, goes into a pile that I can go, know, Facebook market, Craigslist, and try to sell it, get rid of it. If it's just purely like aesthetic value. I've just been taking photos of stuff and then taking photos of stuff and get the memory and then you're done. And then you got this and you give it back to the world, put it back into the universe. And I have these things that goes on a goddamn little tiny, little digital smidge called my computer, and I can still go through it and enjoy it. And I'm gonna make a project out of decluttering my shit, you know? I know how to make a production out of every fucking element of my life. freaks me out. It's not a bad thing, but what if I just don't, you know what I mean? And next thing you know, we get room back here. No more stuff coming into the shop. If I bring this in, I have to displace it with this much stuff you have to understand I have piles of shit around here. It's hard to show the pile, but it's a a little, it's an old vintage, uh, ashtray, you know, from my smoking days, just kidding, but it's filled with little bullshits that I've gotten on the road for a buck or two bucks or little things I just wanna play with. Like. This was some bicentennial bird logo from 1976, you know, there's

Brad Frost: Right.

Aaron: incredible thick line, little Hawk thing that's there. And I play with it and I keep it here, but here, the the new rule is like, if I haven't opened a drawer. couple years, why even have it taken up the fucking space,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: photos of it, glean what you need to glean and get it back out into the universe. Because I'm just coming to this point where like, my dad died, we're still sifting through his shit.

Brad Frost: Oh,

Aaron: And there's a weird burden to that. He used to joke. Hey, asshole. Someday, this'll all be yours. Don't wish that on me. 'cause I know what it's gonna mean. We're 10 years out. And by the way, I always say it's on the podcast, if anyone's listed about my dad, we are saving so much on groceries. Holy shit. if you just died a couple years before, and I could get a new tooth. Yeah. You

Brad Frost: that matters the old phrase, like you can't take it with you when you go. Right.

Aaron: versus

Brad Frost: That's.

Aaron: data versus space. Maybe what I just need to do is just reset the whole fucking machine, is like, I've got a little too many piles rolling around here. when you're buying things to hold things, to hold things, to hold things, that's weird. don't even notice you're doing. it,

Brad Frost: Yeah, I had to clean out a hoarder house. That fundamentally changed my,

Aaron: or something or

Brad Frost: fundamentally changed my relationship with objects when you see that tendency go to, its logical conclusion also coupled with this truly unhealthy attitude. Like I wouldn't ever call you that. You have an eye, you have a gift at seeking things out. There's a curational role, there's an archivist role. You're doing a service. And so I like how you're like processing it and figuring out a way,

Aaron: I've never had an intern, couple but what if I got an intern paid said, come in here and help me pair shit down. this, this, this, this. I need it knocked out to a white background. Go. You you this. This is interesting. There's my wall of books. There's

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: records, but there's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: of books. So I wanna just point to something here. It's hard to get what the, what the orientation. see that yellow book right there.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: What that book is right there. When I went to Slovakia a couple years ago, I went to Bratislava design thing. There were kids from Poland coming in. There were kids from Latvia and uh, Serbia, down in the Balkans and all this interesting stuff, and and all this Ukraine. a kid presented me that yellow book about some Slovakian famous designer. Well, I went through it and there's about four pages where all his logos. And that's where I really tune in. But the other 285 pages is this incredible life and type and design and sculpture and all kinds of things. I've looked at it once. What I've been doing is I've been going through and being like, well, I read that. Am I really gonna read that again? Now the

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: part is I'll go look it up on eBay, it's 240 bucks. ' Cause I got some first issue . And then I'm instantly freaked out of like, I can't give away some weird value of that this eight books or 12 books I pulled outta here. That one's a first of this. I haven't looked at it since 2007, There needs to be a little hand guide. When you're feeling this bunched up, how do you slow it all down and, pair, it all back? Well,

Brad Frost: Right,

Aaron: techniques. guess a

Brad Frost: right.

Aaron: or something? a product.

Brad Frost: It's such a weird thing because I like your arc, here is the, your life arc and for the first part of it, it's beaten into us. Grow, grow, grow, earn, earn, earn. You know, a mass, you know, consume, like, like, get the acorns because you know, you never know. And, that is how society is structured is to very much encourage that attitude. And so the opposite of that is really hard. 'cause you're going hard against the grain of, I think what how it is just been beaten into us across every aspect of the society.

Aaron: Sorry. are we at with this thing, by the way? I think, should we wrap this shit up? Because I got, I got, I got emails coming in here. I'm getting itchy.

Brad Frost: I, I have one more quick thing. Out of all of those records, what's front of mind? What you turned your computer, was it McCartney? Who are you listening to?

Aaron: You know, all the Beatles celebration. I'm not the craziest Beatles fan. I have 'em all up

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: you know, I mean, I was raised with that shit. John Lennon is celebrated. and, And the cultural ties and when they broke up and it's celebrated. and, But what hasn't been celebrated to me too much are the wings.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: McCartney just on his own. So when you look and, and you're like, wait a second, that movie I watched, it was 1969 into 19, the Apple nine hour thing, six months later, he was making this McCartney record. What does it sound like? Some of it's a little goofy, but you start getting into some of those mid seventies Paul McCartney's, holy shit. Now all I'm saying is now the, the next problem I'll have is I'm gonna want 'em all. One of the big ones that happened about two years ago was a band called Superdrag, What I mean by that is in my indie rock nineties, in 1995, I was seeing the Jesus lizard and archers of loaf and povo and shellac mule and, and all the junk. We like smashing pumpkins. A couple years before that, the grungy things, a couple years before that, a couple years after that, Elliot Smiths and, uh, Sunbelts Uncle Tu, Uh, after Sun Minneapolis. I chalked up this man super drag as kind of pretty boys because they had outfits, they had cool haircuts. I heard the one song, we all know the song The Kicked Out, you know, whatever song we all know that was the big hit. you kind of like, eh, they're on the fucking radio, man. A buddy kind of challenged me and said, why haven't you gone deep on super drag? I didn't have an answer like, I knew the song, it wasn't for me. Why don't you go listen to the other 11 songs in that record? mother fuck. that was a weird lesson. I Nada surf kind of got me to,

Brad Frost: Amazing. Yeah.

Aaron: I just like, ah, they got a hit and it's just

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: you know, there's 11 more songs on the record. That's the lesson. So. I'm wrestling with these existential things, but I'm also just wrestling, like, okay. well if I, if I quit working so much, gonna be some voids to fill. So how am I gonna do that? More nature? I just gotta go out and go do it. More time exploring other parts of Portland while we're still here, because, you know, another thing we wrestle with is, should we stay here now, by the way, where are you at? You're in Pittsburgh, right. Okay, I've heard of it. I've been there. The yellow, I, I know, I know. you know, Monte's still burping that shit up. But, is there any chance you'd ever go back to Oil City?

Brad Frost: I don't think so.

Aaron: Okay, because we are wrestling with years later, we might be going back to Traverse City. It's quiet. by the water. It's definitely less expensive than Portland, and suddenly these new premiums are starting to overwhelm. The reality that yes, there are 16 record stores here, but I don't even go anymore. No.

Brad Frost: Right.

Aaron: So what am I doing? The other night, a band called Brainiac that I liked back in the day, and they were coming through and they're all 55 years old and they're doing some kind of hurrah kind of tour whatever the fuck bunch of buddies hit me up. I called a friend. I got a couple guys on the list. I couldn't go. I did not feel good. I was a little under the weather, but I just. It's not for me anymore. I don't wanna be at that show. Like why do I even just listen to the fucking record here, you know? There, you know, pants on. By the way, this entire time you've been recording, I am bottomless. Just so you understand. It's a little weird, but you'll never know brad. You already got up I saw your boxer roos and everything and I get it. I'm bottomless right now, so, know, like, like to, to, to come face first with that and say, unless dinosaurs coming back in town, I'm gonna go say hi to Jay and see the band. I'm going,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: I, work for him. Great. You know, if super drag dudes, John Davis and his buddies come out here, I'll go see the show. I'm going to see a band called Idaho Next Month, because I never got to see him in the fucking nineties. They were so sporadic and stuff. But past that, we went and saw Stapleton last year, 'cause we were like guests. You know, we went, we got all the way into the fucking back. I mean, I kept telling telling my buddy in the back seat, take notes, buddy. Here's what happens when you're one of the graphic designers that works for this big country. We just were laughing our asses off. and we saw Chris, we hugged it out and said hi. And then I said, tonight, don't phone it in. I'm a Lin's in the crowd. She better get a little bit of extra oomph. And he was like, shut the fuck out. That guy is carrying 25,000 people on average a night. It's amazing. And he does it and he sweats. he looks great. He looks cool. And people can't get enough. All this stuff, it's like, I'm taking stock of all aspects of my life. and some of it doesn't align with the Aaron Draplin when you met maybe even seven years ago, when we met eight year, nine, 10 years ago, it doesn't align with the one four years ago during the pandemic where I was showing everything. And even, you know, I look at my Instagram, it's like, second, All those tiktoks that were turned off for those 18 hours or whatever the hell that was. Where did all that shit go? It's just sitting on a server. Now, I've never even thought about my Instagram like this, but that is a book in itself of four posts.

Brad Frost: Life. Yeah. I probably have similar too. Yeah.

Aaron: So you look at that and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What if I recalibrate that you come to the Draplin.com and no one gets to fuck with it. Like what I'm gonna go do, this sounds insane. gonna mine, there's 4,893, maybe there were 400 that were just good. I'm

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: those. They're all backed up in layered Photoshop files. They're all big enough to put into a square. already have 'em in a square and I'm gonna put those in in collections and be like, all right, you can go find this in 2017 in the middle of our book tour, or you can just come to the site and see these things celebrated. Like there

Brad Frost: I love it.

Aaron: you know, like, like, like a, like a, I have to make a post that just says. Come to the site.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aaron: We

Brad Frost: it.

Aaron: we work on your phone now. Responsive. And by the way, to all the UX people, I'm sorry, I said mean things to you guys. Let's end it on something positive.

Brad Frost: Coming back to the sabbatical, because you're like, yeah, I didn't end up doing it. I'm gonna give you some advice. So here's , I've done it

Aaron: Yeah.

Brad Frost: and I think I have a strategy that might scale. So here's the trick. The trick is to go far enough out into a calendar where there's nothing but tumbleweeds. And then you draw big fucking line start date, end date or whatever, and you do it, but you do it so far out like, when you drive out in like the American West and you can see the storm that's like two days down the road. Like

Aaron: Right,

Brad Frost: that, that is the horizon that you need to do something that big. 'Cause all these people were like, how did you do that? I said, well, because I, I drew a box two years prior and everyone could see it coming from a mile away. All of my work colleagues were able to be like, we know that Brad's gonna be out for these three months. I knew that I was going to be out. I knew that I needed to earn a couple more acorns in order to do it comfortably. So that's my hypothesis. It worked for three months. I wanna do another one at some point in time. That is closer. E either a year or, or, or a,

Aaron: What I'm wondering is, and even in those three months, because you weren't the buck, were you spending less too? I mean, I know, I know the answer. I look back at a talk I did in 2012 I said, I think I'm gonna fucking retire at 40. I got some cake in the bank. I'm getting tired of this grind. And I got yelled at by this rock and roll guy named Chuck profit I used to work for was like you're not doing that We don't get to do that as musicians. You're no different. You know, you keep hustling. things fall into place. My dad died. I have to take care of certain things, whatever. It's not a bad story, it's a good story. it got to go to a lot of cool places. But what did you learn when you got that three months off?

Brad Frost: So there was a couple things in that, three months in my pursuit going into it was for two seconds, I wanted to know what it felt like to be bored. Without the clutter, without the obligations, without the emails, without the whatever. I wanted to wake up in the morning and I wanted to just get up whenever I felt like it, and to say, what do I feel like doing today? And, and to just accept it. There's no should. I've had other things where I'm like, okay, cool. I'm gonna like carve out this stretch of time and I'm going to, I'm gonna write my book. I'm gonna do that. There's this urge, this compulsion that we have that's like, oh, well we gotta like, be productive with our time. And on one hand that's true. On the other hand, there's limits to it. Everything in moderation, right? So I wanted to get a taste of what it felt like to not give a shit about those 17 emails in the inbox and to embrace just, just being for a while. And it was only, and this is why I wanna do it again. It was only towards the end that I really kind of started.

Aaron: to you walk on the end of the dock and you jump in the boat just 'cause you're in the water. You gotta get away where you can't see the dock. That's gonna take a couple months where we just put what happens if a client and in week three of that 12 weeks says. Oh, oh my God. We have a devastating thing. We have to change this. You're gonna go right back to it because I know your nature. Here's the thing. When I take the time off to get back into the swing, it is harder and harder and harder to do to get that momentum. What we were accomplishing in November. It was disgusting. The pace we had making new merch, wrapping up 17 of those clients I did that all in the series of November and December, but that month, that meant that when, You know, for 12 days of merch mis, we do this little goofy thing called 12 days of merch Mis first 12 days of there are five posts you have to build in design. There's a real, you have to put up in film. Put a graphic on it. There's It was just too much.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: Nice return, we saved it all. And I just chopped off a mountain of Lee's debt, you know, so I, I freed her up. Why are we doing this shit? You know,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: just have the account bank account and be like pull yourself up by your bootstraps No I'm fucking freeing her from all those the chains of unfair shit and,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aaron: I told my accountant, she was like, no one ever does that. We're not married, I've been with her 16 years. I mean, I love the woman, so I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aaron: logic and went and drained one of the accounts and she gets to walk around a lot lighter today. I know it was loans

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aaron: car cars paid off and some other bullshit's paid off. because I have had that levity for a lot of years. When I get a bill, I fucking pay it. What a privilege. I want her to have that same thing. By the way, I've already done that for my mom. I've, you know, to help my little sister and shit. you know, what's around you, you know, that is job number one because you're coding and you're making beautiful websites and solving these digital problems for people or whatever and I'm making whatever bullshit I make. It's not like we're swinging a hammer, but I gotta tell you some days it sounds pretty cool to go swing a hammer,

Brad Frost: Oh dude. I fantasize about that all the time.

Aaron: I, wa by, by the way, when the guys built my shop here, does, how does the beam connect to, to the piece of concrete? And he goes, watch, and there's clips and you put the beam in the clip and zip, zip, you know, and it's like, oh, and then you get another beam to that. And it wasn't any big mystery, but I miss working with my hands.

Brad Frost: totally. Hundred percent.

Aaron: Youngster back there. I see a little,

Brad Frost: Yeah. Hey, hey to Erin. Hello.

Aaron: Hello there Hi there. I gotta go do some stuff I got I got something I gotta be two by five

Brad Frost: You do your thing, man. Hey, thank you so much for, for, for talking. This is, um, this is fun, man. I like thank you so much. This great. So take care. We'll see you later.