I Feel Like I Have Lightning in My Fingertips with Ridd

Brad: [0:12] Hey, Ridd!

Ridd: [0:13] Hey, Brad. How you doing?

Brad: [0:16] doing good. let's jump right in. What, what has you waking up excited these days?

Ridd: [0:20] Man, I'm having more fun as a designer right now than I ever have in my career. Like, I've been waking up every day and thinking about digital interfaces on various types of devices for so long, right? Until you kind of get into a groove where I know what my profession is, I'm good at it, I've put in the reps, I understand how to think about it. And then I feel like in the last six months even, everything's kind of just been bazooka'd, and then I'm figuring out how to like reassemble it. But it's really, really fun, and I'm able to do things and own things that I didn't think I'd ever have the right or ability to play with. And so I write so much code every day, It's fun, man. I'm having so much fun. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm… My days end, and I'm like, "I wish it wasn't over." Like, I, I just, I wake up so excited to get on my computer and build software, and I didn't think that I would be living in this state of mind or state of world. Um, it's a blast. I'm, I'm… It's a blast.

Brad: [1:21] that's amazing. That's amazing. So, it just feels like you're like, "Okay, cool. This is just a, a bazooka of, of opportunity." I like that word.

Ridd: [1:31] Totally.

Brad: [1:33] verb.

Ridd: [1:33] There's probably an, a more eloquent way to say that.

Brad: [1:36] No, that's fine. That's fine. something happened in the last six months even, or six weeks or six

Ridd: [1:43] I can code now. It's like simple as that, you know? Like I knew a little bit. I knew enough to be, to like annoy engineers with the random PR or like mess around with some Tailwind stuff, but now I'm like-

Brad: [1:55] Yeah.

Ridd: [1:56] be able to build multiple features today, and it will be ev- exactly as I want them. Every single pixel, every single animation, every single easing curve, every single hover state, everything will be 100%, like, up to me to decide and execute against. And for every other time that I've played in code, you know, you have this, this taste execution gap that is the Grand Canyon as somebody who's been designing for a long time but has a very limited set of front-end skills, and now it's just kinda gone. And every time I feel a new one, I'm able to intentionally point, like, Claude and be like, "I wanna close this gap. Let's talk about it. Like, how do I close this gap?" And then I can normally get there, you know, either by identifying the right resources, or I'll make some kind of a skill, or a lot of times I'm just, like, learning more specific, um, uh, higher leverage language to use to get what I want out of the models. Like, I just… Man, I don't know if you feel this, Brad, but, like, I feel, I feel so powerful in a way that's really exciting. Like, I, like, maybe overconfidence, maybe the pendulum will swing back to a more healthy spot, but right now I feel like I'm shooting lightning tips. I, I feel like I'm shooting lightning out of my fingertips, and that I can do anything, and nobody can stop me.

Brad: [3:12] I think, yeah, th- you're, you're, you're touching on a whole lot of things. There is… I think that the learning how to learn has always been a really important skill, I think, to cultivate. And then I think what you're describing as that, here's this Grand Canyon that, couldn't historically Evel Knievel your way over

Ridd: [3:31] Yes. Now that's a verb.

Brad: [3:33] and now it's like, oh, yes, that, that chasm is a lot smaller, and that jump is, is actually possible. And even that jump, you're able to reevaluate and you're like, "Eh, there's, there's still some space here," or you bump into something and you don't feel like, "Well, I'm stuck, and I'm gonna spend, like, the next, like, five hours just kind of troubleshooting

Ridd: [3:57] Yeah.

Brad: [3:58] some weird obtuse issue that you have no business knowing

Ridd: [4:03] Yeah,

Brad: [4:04] And yeah, it's… And, and, and that allows you as a single person realize the ideas that are in your head

Ridd: [4:13] Yeah,

Brad: [4:14] out into the world.

Ridd: [4:15] you're just like, you're less reliant on people. And I, I do think there's an element of I, I wanna be equally or, or even more so collaborative with others, and I think I'm still figuring out what collaboration looks like in this world where y- you kinda feel like you can do everything. But I mean, I, I can… The things that I w- was good at, obviously AI is an amplifier, but then the things that I am curious about, but I don't necessarily have even the foundational skill set, I'm able to do something. You know, I'm able to get something. Like, I'm a I'm not an artist, you know? Like, that's not me. I, I can't really draw things that well. I'm not-- I, I can't s- visualize, more artistic, like, animations, compositions. Like, I'm a technical designer. I like thinking in code, in rules, in systems. Like, that makes so much sense to me. But if you're like, "You know, make a nice motion composition for this," whatever you're making, like, I freak out a little bit. But, but I'm able to get to, like, a, a pretty decent bas- I, I'll give you a quick story. Like,

Brad: [5:14] Yep.

Ridd: [5:15] two nights ago, uh, I got a, a sneak peek of, uh, Jitter AI. Jitter is like this motion tool that I really like. By the way, it's the best flavor of Waterloo. And I was-- I'm playing with this thing. I'm not a motion designer. I have no real skills, period. Like, in period. But they released this feature where you could just describe something, and then it gives a set of parameters in the sidebar where you can control this animation and maybe, like, export it as a shader or something. my starting spot was I didn't even type anything into Jitter. I just typed into Claude, and I was like, "I have no idea what I should do here. Like, how fun would it be to create something that feels like it's underwater, though? Like, what do I-- H-how do I even think about what the prompt should be?" 'Cause I don't have any language for that, you know? And it's, like, going through, and Claude's like, "Well, you could go in this direction or this direction or this direction." I'm like, "Oh, that's kinda cool. Let's do that one." And then I realize, oh, the language that I need is this idea of, like, caustics, like the water reflections, like the light reflections on water. That's like the ripple effect that you would see in a pool. I didn't have that word in my vocabulary, but Claude gave it to me. And then it gave me the rabbit hole to explore within that world. And now all of a sudden I'm getting a bunch of really high-fidelity prompts, and I'm just putting them in. I'm like, that's cool. That's cool. Whoa, I love that one. What if we tweaked it this way? And then in, like, I don't know, nine minutes, I have something that I love, that there's just no way that I wouldn't even have known what tool to use to make something like that, you know?

Brad: [6:38] Yep. Yep. It's, uh, you're describing and you even use it, it's like onomatopoeia. It's, we're now in a place where we're able to be like, "It would be really cool if we went sh-"

Ridd: [6:47] Yeah.

Brad: [6:49] pow, or if we had this go zap, or if we had this be like aw. And, and what's fascinating about that is that we understand, as human beings, those connotations, right? We understand boom, splat, pow. that's been a part of our, you know, comic book, uh, uh, history and all of that stuff and, and beyond. But that applies to all modalities, right? And what's very, very fascinating about this is that we're, we now have these new tools that help us connect the dots between this very, very, very strange and- language and then connect it to the technical dots of how to actually realize this stuff in, in, through, through software. Or, or through whatever. And a- again, this, this applies, you could do, like, the same thing for, for music and,

Ridd: [7:41] Totally.

Brad: [7:43] want this to feel more bitey," or, "I wa- I want this to feel smoother," "I want this to feel…" whatever. And it's really, really fascinating to be able to be like, "I, I have a vision, or a mental idea, a mental model of what I want this to be in my head." And you're now able to be like, "Uh, let me see it.

Ridd: [8:04] And, and sometimes it's like sometimes you're in pursuit of specificity or like the, the, the correct language, you know? Obviously software is-- Music would work the same way though, right? Like there's a… Oh my gosh. I mean, that's a deep rabbit hole, the language associated that, with music that is completely invisible to ninety-nine point nine percent of the population. Obviously, if you can grasp that language, you're able to achieve much more specific results, and sometimes it's like, how can I use the LLM to capitalize on the little nugget of, uh… Like I know like a Dorian scale kinda has like a minor blues feel, but I'm sure there's like 40 other words associated with that that I don't understand and like can you just help me find them so I can give more specific directions? And then sometimes it's like the complete opposite where it's like, can you make this feel a little bit more like splashing in a puddle as the sun is finally coming out on a rainy day, and then just hit enter and like, what's gonna happen, you know? And like both ends of the spectrum could be really useful and interesting.

Brad: [9:02] And tha- and that's right. And it's, and it's kind of like, what are you, what are you intending on doing? And I think that that's, that's really been the thing that's stripped all of this stuff away and gets into the, the nature of, of design, which is just like, well, what are you intending on doing in this specific moment in time, right? 'Cause your intentions change over time. Sometimes you want to explore, sometimes you want to just get a feel for something. Sometimes you wanna, you know, go into left field and do something just radically different. And sometimes you're like, "Eh, no, the, I need this to, to be going towards something that feels concrete and familiar," whatever. But it's an area that I'm very interested in picking at with, with people because I think a lot of There's still a lot of kind of flat, uh, understanding or misunderstanding around a lot of this, and I do think that you need to go through it, you need to experience it in order to kinda cognitively understand, like, "Oh,

Ridd: [10:01] Totally.

Brad: [10:03] I can do anything now, huh?"

Ridd: [10:05] And I think we've-- When you're on the sidelines, I think the natural vantage point that we or maybe artificially create for ourselves is like we just inflate the a-amount of knowledge required to do something with all these new foreign tools. Like I, I was just… I had coffee. I, I live in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Spoiler, no designers live in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Like I'm so-- This is not a tech hub, you know? So I went to a coffee shop a couple weeks ago. I saw a guy working on a, the design system for a very well-known company in Figma, and I'm like,

Brad: [10:39] hello

Ridd: [10:39] "What? Are you serious?" The guy, uh, yeah. It was like he's got over-ear headphones on. He's so cl- he might as well have a giant do not disturb sign on his back, and I walked right over and I was like, "D-t, t-- Hey,

Brad: [10:51] Yeah.

Ridd: [10:52] p- my name's Rid, you know. You wanna do a … Do you wanna talk like about anything related to what you're doing? You know." So anyway, we, we start talking and, uh, you know, longtime principal designer working at a, a well-known agency and, uh, moved here from Denver. I also moved here from Denver. It's like, "Cool. Let's be friends," you know. So I got coffee with him two days ago, and it was like the let's, you know, the actual meet and greet. And in the role that he was in, he'd been working as a principal designer at this agency for like five or six years and had zero incentive, push, and really motivation to do anything out of the norm. So he, he was working as of two weeks ago, the exact same way that he has been working probably since twenty eighteen when Figma came out, you know. And he's wants to get a new job, and so we were kinda talking about like the job market. I, I have this like talent network and a really interesting window into the job market as a result, and so he's just asking me questions, and I'm just giving him answers. And the fact is a lot of the answers are people are looking for- designers and generally people who are AI curious and trying new things and, you know, thinking about workflows and, and he's like, "Can you just…" He's like, "Is there a course that you could send me to get started?" And I'm like, " No. Like, we're gonna do this right now. Like, get out your laptop," you know? Like, "We can get-- We can do this in 10 minutes, and you can get enough to start." And, uh, and then he texted me yesterday. He's-- He has a band, a local band. They do like little house shows, and he has a website on… And he texted me this fully interactive v- um, music player that he built for his website. It's absolutely gorgeous. It plays all of his own songs. He has all these fun little scrubbing interactions. You can change the, what the visualizer looks like, and it took him like a few hours. And he's like, "I, I get it now. Like I… What?" Like, and you can't look at the world the same way after you build something like that, that is specific for you and your set of interests, solves a real problem that you had, and now he's hooked. And it's like, how do you get more people that experience, you know? Without being like,

Brad: [12:49] Yep.

Ridd: [12:49] me, please, I promise. It's really easy. Just try it," you know?

Brad: [12:52] I, that's beautiful, and I think it's especially beautiful because it is a, bazooking of his creative potential as a musician. It is facilitating his creativity, his band, his furthering his band's, uh, ability to their self-expression out into the world.

Ridd: [13:16] Yeah.

Brad: [13:17] that is very, very difficult because that also lives, and I, and I'm always very careful talk about this because it's, like, part of the, the broader cultural conversation around this is still on original sin, which is, yeah, yeah, this stuff ate all of our shit, and now it's able-- And that's what's giving, allowing us, uh, to, to have these kinds of superpowers now. And that's still bad and always

Ridd: [13:45] Yep.

Brad: [13:47] that, it was done the way that it was done, and there's no reconciliation of that, and that's okay. And you're allowed to, like, be mad about it, and I fully respect that because I'm mad about it too. It's like, I like

Ridd: [13:59] Totally. And

Brad: [14:04] I guess, you know, that's what I get for sharing things. But, like, not everyone feels that way, and that needs to be honored and respected. But, and then you have this, "Oh, yes, and now we're going to basically, like, just get out the machetes and start hacking away people's jobs and redundancies and all of, like, that stuff." That's all real too, and that's- we're

Ridd: [14:26] we have no plan for it.

Brad: [14:27] t- And w- a- and we're, well, but so, but back, back to your pal though, I think, a very interesting moment in time because all of the artists of the world, all of the musicians, all of the nonprofits, all of these people who have been, by way of the systems that they've been operating in, uh, by way of the, th- of how society's been designed, the way of, of what we put our value in, as a society, what, what we compensate, what we don't, that leaves this very, very vast chasm between the people who are gainfully employed at the, the that, you know, we chat to and have worked in

Ridd: [15:13] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [15:13] and, around and stuff like that, these people that are like, "I'm an artist, and I have stuff that I would like to get out into the world." And, um, there's a lot of value there. And so what I'm very, very excited about is for more of those people to have the experience that your new pal just

Ridd: [15:35] Yeah.

Brad: [15:37] uh AI-generated images equals, you know, crappy things that are then stealing people's job. That's a narrative, and that, and again, that's, that's real, and that's true, but that's not the only narrative. And I think that that's, that's, that's the thing that I'm so excited about is the thing that you just, you kinda just showed your new pal is, is, is, like, here's how you can use these things to facilitate your own destiny, your own creative destiny, and that, that it's wherever. It's wherever you want to go with it.

Ridd: [16:11] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [16:11] It's wherever you wanna go with it, that you could use this stuff. You could point this stuff at the stuff that is, like, to you,

Ridd: [16:19] Yeah.

Brad: [16:23] uh, rather than just being like, " Ticketmaster sucks," that's been the, state of affairs for the entirety of, of, like, the musical universe for, you know, the, the default, right? For, for so long, and everybody's just under the, the, their thumb. what does it look like when you design your own version of th- a thing that doesn't that, that doesn't operate in that way, that doesn't operate with those values? And historically, it, it was, well, you know, that sounds hard. Well, what if, what if it wasn't

Ridd: [17:01] Yeah.

Brad: [17:01] And every single day I, I wake up… Just, he- here's, here's my thing last night. Um, I was like, what does it look like to take your, your playlist, uh, whatever streaming service you're using, Spotify, Apple Music, whatever, uh, that are kinda notoriously kinda not great at paying out big numbers and stuff. What if, uh, for any liked song on your playlist that you, uh, that you listened to this week, uh, at the end of the week, it gives you an email uh, links to all of those songs for you to buy them from either their website directly, uh, or from Bandcamp or wherever, like, you could actually, like, give them a buck for the, the music that, that you listen to. again,

Ridd: [17:55] Yeah.

Brad: [17:59] valuing that, what does it look like to… And it doesn't even need to be an either/or, although you could, you know, make some arguments about these, these platforms and, and all of that stuff, and there's, that's part of the ongoing conversation in this realm. But it's like, at the very least, it's like a lot of this stuff is just around, like, visibility and around access and ease. I think a lot of people want to support artists. I think a, a, people want to throw a buck or two in the direction of the music, uh, and the musicians that are, are making it. so, again, what would it look like? And so th- that was my, that was my, like, two-minute rabbit hole. I'm like, what does that look like? What's, like, the easy version of this? What's the version that's just like, well, Last.fm's been around forever, and you could just kinda like look at that stuff very easily. there's just so many ways to, to point this at whatever we want, and I think that this is, like, the thing that really, really excites me is that historically we've had to be reliant a certain type of, like, company or platform or whatever in order for us to

Ridd: [19:09] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brad: [19:14] a lot of things and makes things, you know, democratizes things. It makes things way more accessible to people, that's why I feel an obligation at a, at a human level to basically help the people who are rightly pissed off at that, again, the, the original sin and all of, like, the real downsides and risks and externalities and all that stuff. Yes, that's all there. That's all real, and it is, and here is, like, what we can do with it. And I'm excited to see That's why I'm trying to, like, help people hold multiple thoughts in their head at the same time because I'm like… It's like, "Dude, I get it. Dude, I get it. I understand," and I'm like, in many respects, right there with you. But also, like, here it is, just like you showed with, with your pal. It's like, here it is. Like, here it is. Just, just use it. Just, just do it, and then you're, you're over the line and off to the races.

Ridd: [20:10] Yeah, and the, the original sin piece is, is never going away, you know? Like, you can… I, I'm probably more than I should be, honestly. Like, I'm not… I'm very forward-looking in everything. So it's like, if something is a sunk cost, like great, I derive no value for, from thinking about it again.

Brad: [20:26] Yeah.

Ridd: [20:30] so it's a little easier for me to, to like just say, "This is the world I live in, and the only thing that really matters is like tomorrow and the next day." And so like let's just… But how do I show up in the world that exists today? Is kinda how I operate. But it's interesting, like the flip side of everything that, that we're talking about is when things are democratized and you have all of these different abilities. I gave the motion design example. Well, like would I have hired a motion designer previously in the past? Maybe, maybe not for that example, but like certainly for some things. Certainly for some things this year there will be a motion element that I would have previously hired someone for that I will do myself, and it will be very fun and very fulfilling for me, and I will have these new abilities. But it's like the cost of democratization is the loss of power and control from the people who have previously held the skills, you know? It's like, it's like I get it, you know? My goodness, I, uh… It's interesting to even have relationships with engineers right now. I'm sure it's quite annoying. I'm sure there's-- I'm sure they're way more frustrated than they would actually tell me about me, encroaching on their territory, that they- The, the, the, the, the walls that were built were built over many years of practice and determinations and Stack Overflow threads, you know?

Brad: [21:47] Mm-hmm.

Ridd: [21:48] a sudden I'm just like, "Oh, I am over here now. Hey guys," you know? "I deserve to be here," you know? That's, that's hard, and you can look at that at every… Like, my brother is a audio engineer. I'm more of like the hobbyist musician. It's great for me. I love playing on Suno. It's super fun. I- one of my best friends is the worship leader at my church. Dude just writes a song on his g- acoustic guitar and then like, quote-unquote, "prototypes" it with Suno to see how it would si- sound live with a full band and like, you know, a full sound system. I think that's incredible. Like, that is so cool. Then you have my brother who's like, " What is my career defensibility as somebody who has built up, you know, just so many reps of producing and mixing and mastering and…" That there's two sides to every single coin, you know? It's weird.

Brad: [22:37] there's a couple things that come to mind. And as you were sort of describing your adventures into animation and as well as the, oh yeah, the, this kind of what's this fuzzy threshold that gets crossed of, oh, I would've hired a freelancer for this versus I, I, I'll just do it myself. I think that, that a word that's important to put into the, into the mix is, is fluency. So your brother, the, the audio engineer, and our ability to, what you were saying earlier, to onomatopoeia our way in there, it's like we could, you know, get a crude approximation thing. But whenever, if we were, like, shipping something, real or something that is consequential and all of that stuff, right? The, the ability to kinda go, "Here's my, like, toddler book version of, of what this is," and I could visually look at it and it's, and it looks good. But it's like, is this durable? Is this all, like, is this actually, like, sound, right? And as an audio engineer and just knowing, like, how detail-oriented, uh, they are, you could, uh, you know, point that at anything, whether it's lettering or whether it's, uh, you know, design systems work or coding work or whatever. It's like there is a- Yeah, this kind of false sometimes sense of, of competency. and this is, I think, what's really interesting because there's, there's an attitude that's around defensiveness versus curiosity that I think is, like, a big way out of

Ridd: [24:11] Yeah.

Brad: [24:11] I think a lot of the people that are just, like, feeling like the wall's closing in and around them, that's that sort of scarcity mindset that I think can be, countered by empowerment and, and by sort of opening the doors to, well, you know, does this need to be at the expense of, of your thing? Or can you take the th- the world that you have operated and your skills, all of your hard-earned language that you've absorbed and internalized and all of your skills and talents, and then, and then you go out, right? You go outward, So, so it's a, it's a constriction versus expansion. And what, I think is the threshold for getting around that is, is what you just described about, again, your, your new pal is, is just, like, had he been sitting there working in the same way he'd always been working, and then just kind of seeing everything kind of move in around him, and to, to, to kind of protect it and to defend it, like it gets kind of smaller and smaller and you get more and more worried

Ridd: [25:19] Yeah.

Brad: [25:19] what you said before about here's today and here's tomorrow and kind of dwelling on the past is I think like a a an interesting dynamic here And I think that it's like that's a really important attitude to cultivate because I think that a lot of people that are feeling that constriction are i not yet far enough down the road where they're they're they're looking ahead They're instead just like Yes

Ridd: [25:46] you're protecting old ground,

Brad: [25:48] Right Right

Ridd: [25:49] which is not a battle you wanna play right now.

Brad: [25:53] but and and so that is the thing right Like at a societal level fought so hard for stability in my own life it's like this is a very destabilizing moment in time And so could fully fully fully appreciate everyone's you know fear anxiety and that feeling of constriction and that that just very destabilizing thing But I think that just how you opened our conversation with with going through a process by which you're then able to sort of emerge out the other end and and wake up excited to to sort of go outward rather than feeling the the The the walls closing in around you is something I think that we need to we need to Let's let's solve this What what what needs to happen for anyone who's in this position that feels that that constriction Like how do you get to the other side of it

Ridd: [26:49] I think where my mind went was, oddly enough, this, uh, it's a John Mayer interview when he was on Hot Ones, and he-- I'll butcher the quote, but he, He talked about how some songs he makes for himself and someti- some songs he makes because it's, like, good commercial practice, and he's making it for the masses, and there's basically zero overlap between the two. Like, the stuff he makes for himself is a level of, like, complexity and nuance and, you know, m-maybe dissonance even that scratches his itch as somebody who has an incredibly refined ear, or maybe in a designer's stance, it would be an incredibly refined eye. But the-- what makes that song meaningful to him, it doesn't even exist to the average person. In fact, it might just kinda sound like noise, a little bit more than is needed. if you think about maybe someone like my brother and-- or anybody who feels like AI is encroaching on the set of skills that they've built up over a decade and their little professional bubble, and you're kind of just like, "Wait," like, "Can I defend this territory, or do I need to, like, get the heck out of dodge and try to figure out what to combine it with and do something totally different?" my concern, I guess, is that we are just gonna get more of everything, and when you have excess supply, the-- where the demand concentrates does not necessarily correlate with the level of talent and ability required to make it. Because given excess supply, we won't pick John Mayer's best tracks. We'll pick the stuff that honestly you and I could probably make over the next 15 minutes with Suno. And then different factors impact what discoverability looks like and where demand gravitates to,

Brad: [28:37] Mm-hmm

Ridd: [28:38] and you probably look like, you know, whoever's the best at TikTok is, is, is actually who we're listening to. And I don't know what to do with that. I, I, I don't know what to do with that. It makes me a little bit uncomfortable. Uh, it, you know, it just, it just does. Like, that's the full flip side of, of everything. Like, you could, you could, you could run any profession on a computer almost through that little thought exercise. It gets weird, man. Gets weird. I don't know how to think about any of it.

Brad: [29:06] I agree with all of it And and I think the the the the thing that I'll put on the table is that the whatever's on TikTok and treating that as a constant isn't on the table So what does it look like

Ridd: [29:20] Sure.

Brad: [29:21] ways of connecting people with good human-made stuff uh that

Ridd: [29:28] Yeah.

Brad: [29:30] these handful of platforms that have been the

Ridd: [29:33] Yeah.

Brad: [29:33] for

Ridd: [29:34] hope that's the thing. I hope the pendulum swing… Like, we're obviously still-- It's going to get, quote unquote, "worse," depending on your definition. It's gonna get worse before it gets better. You know? Like, we are, we are still swinging towards the AI everything, but, like, gosh, I really am hopeful that the pendulum will come back, and all of a sudden it will lead to this, in many ways, maybe, like, revitalization of local culture, Yeah, you know? Like, uh, local music is, like, so in-- Like, will we have a resurgence of local music? Hopefully, as there's more, you know, GDP per capita and a less time requirement, maybe the way that we think about a 40-hour workweek looks antiquated 10 years from now. Are we just m-making art and having community experiences with the people around us? That would be cool, you know? I, I'd like to think of-- I'd like to think that that is where this might be headed. We'll see.

Brad: [30:26] that requires work that requires intentional design right And and

Ridd: [30:30] Agreed.

Brad: [30:32] and I think that you're right It's like whatever the a lot of like the labor around the production of the things that people actually like need just you know that's going to continue to get more efficient when you look at you know Maslow's hierarchy there as we're able to sort of here's food production here's like basic things but even digital things like like websites and finding out where the concert's gonna be That's always been the historic pain in the ass is like somebody's gotta manage that or here's this like app or here's this like thing that was trying to everything up but then they get bored or they like lose focus and then like all of a sudden yep that went away or that newsletter went away and and so now everybody's just kind of floating And I think that that we had a collective experience with this with COVID where so much of the uh uh existing infrastructure around community just got annihilated

Ridd: [31:30] see ya.

Brad: [31:31] the restaurants shut down Uh half of the the meetups all of that stuff just get decimated right in many respects the timing of COVID and then kind of coming out the other end of it and then here comes this shit just kind of like disrupting us like yet again can feel that way Again that that sort of destabilization uh of things and we're already kind of we've already been beaten down and then this just feels it's like man I can't catch a break But unlike something like COVID which is just like actually you know bad It's just like this equals death uh straight up Uh AI on the other hand right as as a material or as a technology is is something that can cause harm but it also can help get closer together to rebuild those

Ridd: [32:26] Totally.

Brad: [32:28] and help us have experiences one another and help us be able to connect with the people around us connect with our communities help our communities And those opportunities I think are re require a bit of an imagination right Like that's that's why like whenever I why I keep like kinda picking at this these ideas more and more because it's like we're so used to just things being this just mundane fucking abysmal experience most of the time You look out into the world and you're just like This ain't good right So what does it look like to just like actually make that better I learned from the best of them My mom's an an art teacher and she got really creative with child labor over the years And uh so she would like point a bunch of kids at like kind of com community murals in her hometown and like other things like

Ridd: [33:28] All right, that's cool.

Brad: [33:29] this day there's you know just nice of color and like actual things that have this very like kinda human feel to it right So it's like so this is the kinda stuff right Like you were saying earlier it's like I'm like not like a a designer designer in the like Or or I'm not like an artist

Ridd: [33:48] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [33:48] but but but what we're describing what I'm describing here is like this is this is an active design It's an intentional application of art in order to like make a community better so that as you're

Ridd: [34:00] Totally.

Brad: [34:04] and instead feels like a place where you're like Oh this is this is nice Like I'm able to have like welcome to Hampton painted by some kids with some like you know people walking their dogs in a park or like you know whatever whatever little things that that people wanna paint this is what we can do That stuff is fucking work That is coordination That is collaboration That requires uh community township meetings That requires uh approvals That requires some fees probably right Materials need to be paid for You need to get the permission by whoever owns that retaining wall There it is right That's the sort of shit that sucks It's terrible but it's the requisite work the human work the bureaucratic work that needs to happen in order to do something like painting a retaining wall a nice a nice color without me just going out and tagging it with with graffiti in the middle of the night which I've been tempted to

Ridd: [35:05] I was about to say, y- y- you've almost done it.

Brad: [35:08] co I and I could have done that but but it's like but the beauty of something like this would be making it a community effort making it so the that the artifact reflects reflects the c the community effort and that that is a part of the work

Ridd: [35:23] Yep.

Brad: [35:24] does it look like when we're empowered we're all empowered to basically go Huh we should do something about

Ridd: [35:32] Yeah, I can make that better. Yeah.

Brad: [35:34] it doesn't it doesn't feel like an impossible feat right

Ridd: [35:38] There's like a whole c-- I mean, obviously my brain goes a, a little bit more to software as an output, but there's a whole… I mean, how many community specific problems were ever economically viable to solve with software? Like none, dude. None. 'Cause the city's not gonna do it. They don't have the abilities. And then anything else that is like cross-city, now you have one of the hardest go-to-market problems in the world. And then everything that you were doing software related had to have the, the TAM to make it a good financial decision to pay a large upfront cost to do, and therefore you got nothing. Nothing. all that's gone now. You can-- It can be a, you know… Obviously, we're doing this outside of financial m- motivations, but I think financial It's less about the motivations and more about the financials are the barrier to you actually doing anything so often, right? And it's like all, all of a sudden it's like, well, you could solve one person's problem with software, and it could be economically viable. Well, that's very interesting, right? I, I did that with my, my dad. He didn't-- he wasn't asking for an app or anything. He just is like, he's an insurance adjuster, and he has no tooling because he works for himself, and he was just like driving around with like chicken scratch on papers, like keeping notes about people and like trying to figure out his routes and everything. It was very str- I mean, you could see it was stressful. I, I heard him talk about it enough where I'm like, " We should just, we should, we should talk about this, right?" And so he just kind of dumped on me for an hour. I took a bunch of notes and then just went and built him a tool, and it's like meaningfully changed his life , you know? That would have made no sense even if I had the skills because it would have taken me six months or something, you know? And, and now it's like, oh, you can actually build something pretty good in like a week or two. And I think especially designers, anybody, but we're in this moment of time right now where I do think we're in a, the, the vast mi-min-minority of the world understands that, one, problems can be found, two, problems can be solved with software, and three, I have the ability to do it now, like right now if I wanted to, you know? And so it's like we can… A-and people still, like there, there's still-- People don't understand how easy software is right now, you know? Like if you would hand something, like, "Here, I made you this," you know? My friend has the concept of like software as a gift. It's this guy Kyle. Like, "I made you this thing with software." What? You know? Are you serious? That doesn't… Like what? What a fun little moment. Like eventually we'll kind of collectively as a society probably understand how cheap and easy it has become, but like we're, we're in this transitionary period where there's

Brad: [38:11] Yep

Ridd: [38:11] a lot of meaning associated with it, but the cost is low, and so you can just

Brad: [38:15] Mm-hmm

Ridd: [38:16] be a genuinely kind and loving and mind-blowing person by just making software for people, you know? That's

Brad: [38:24] beautiful

Ridd: [38:25] right?

Brad: [38:25] It's beautiful Yeah yeah And I think that the role of of designers and and people who who are fluent in these languages have a real opportunity here to sort of like take take that outward and and to sort of like demonstrate that like like with you and your dad Uh but also again like uh this is sort of something that I've been doing a bit more of and trying to sort of like rally around is this idea of here's all these like nonprofit organizations who are operating on shoestring budgets uh and have been for so long Or yeah city governments or whatever that are just Yeah everybody's just kind of like in this place of just like I I'm dying or we're figuring out how to be very very resourceful with like the little scraps of of money and time that like we have I think that our communities of professional designers and developers especially those that are maybe working in-house at places I think like it I unfortunately I s I've seen this kinda dip in the last maybe 10 years I feel like there used to be a little bit more of the Ah yeah like we're gonna do these like side I feel like there used to be like I don't know This is just my vantage point so I could be totally wrong about this But there used to be like Oh yeah I'm gonna like go over here and like help my buddy with his business or whatever or I'm going to you know volunteer some stuff over on You know build this website over here And then I think that that kinda got replaced with like side hustles uh

Ridd: [39:58] Yeah.

Brad: [40:00] is a a different uh thing

Ridd: [40:02] Yeah.

Brad: [40:03] so so my thing though is that I think that people's innate desire to want to be able to help and want to be able to sort of like you know work towards the greater good has always been there I think that there's a lot of like self-preservation There's like Ah I don't have the time And again I think that this is the thing that that you just really wonderfully said where it's just like well know w like it is so easy now

Ridd: [40:28] Y-you do?

Brad: [40:30] what does it look like Cause it cause it's nonprofits aren't gonna be like rolling up you know jamming on Claude Code by themselves and stuff like

Ridd: [40:38] Yeah, agreed.

Brad: [40:40] opportunity to s to sort of facilitate this process and I think that that is like when we get into the existential territory of what a designer is you're like you know designing intentional solutions to problems that mindset that that that process b o o of taking a problem and and you know designing solutions to it still re exists That's gonna be a ar around for as long as human are around it just might not look like rectangles drawn on a canvas as much It's it's it gets more into the the the the human connection and this is I I think like a good thing many people for th the last couple generations of of designers have been headphones on in rectangle land when we need to be talking to the people who use our stuff or talking to the people who have the problem And like we're actually now able to co-design and to facilitate and to like do all of this stuff and orchestrate these people who are all like Uh yeah I don't I don't know about this but I do know about my deep of what I And you get all those people together each with their own deep stores of knowledge in their respective fields and you get them all together and you say

Ridd: [42:00] Yep.

Brad: [42:01] to design some solutions to these problems and you all have some smart stuff We might have some competing opinions But that's the other cool thing back to the translation Well now historically Gary and Bob don't like each other and so And they're talking past each other but they're actually saying two different things Or they're actually saying the same thing they're just saying it in two different ways but they're talking past one another Well if they were no longer talking past one another What if there is a way translate that language out of Gary's world and into Bob's and vice versa and then all of a sudden you have shared understanding Okay maybe we could do something with that

Ridd: [42:42] Yeah, you have to just-- I don't know, people talk a lot about like moving upstream. It's overused, but it's, it's very true, right? Like, the only reason that you would be right in having doubt about the longevity of what you're doing for money is if you are just kind of downstream implementing everything, right? So it's like there's maybe even a way that like, you know, you're, you're, you're two, I forget their hypothetical names, but like talking past each other. Like, even connecting that to the, the local business opportunity, which I am excited for more software to like, more high quality software to flow into that segment of the market. it's one thing to be good at solving problems, which designers are, but I think actually like the really high-levered skill all of a sudden is to be the problem finder. Like, can you find the thing that could be better? Because especially in the local businesses, they're not gonna come to you with like the set of, "Here are my seven things that I know could be more efficient. I just don't have the ability to do it." No, you know, they just wake up every day and do their thing in the same way that the two people just talk over each other. And so like, can you find The thing that if it was just like tweaked or optimized or if, you know, if these-- if, if a bridge was built between these two people or workflows, it's like that is the skill set, man. When execution is cheap, what are you pointed at? And like the problem finders, those are the people that I-- and the, and the future's pretty bright if you can bring that to the table at a high level.

Brad: [44:11] Hell yeah Hell yeah And and that's just it It's like so many people don't know that they have the problems or like your dad is is able to

Ridd: [44:20] Yeah.

Brad: [44:22] of frustration or just kind of like a lot of people just throwing up their hands just Yeah yeah what are you gonna do Or or whatever So again even if people don't have that attitude which yeah you you're 100 right they they feel it They feel that experience They feel You you see them They're they're they're tired They're exhausted They're frustrated They're they're slammed and you don't need to look very hard to find that And so that's where it's like the the the role of curiosity in in just being like How's how's it going And like just Tell me tell me what's hard then like yeah I don't know come come through the bakery uh door the following day with your software as a gift

Ridd: [45:06] Yeah.

Brad: [45:07] Or something like that you know

Ridd: [45:08] I, I, I've been thinking a lot-- I, I think I'm being skewed by this. I was just on a sales demo with a pretty interesting product. But like I've been thinking a lot about like what is the blurry middle ground between a purely self-serve software experience that you've made and the more like service-based consulting setup piece of said software? Because there's something kinda interesting there. AI's making both of them much more efficient, but you think about like a local business. They don't-- Like they want a tool, but they really just want the problem solved, and they're not going to be the most technically capable probably. You think about your local business down the street, like they don't wanna learn new software. They don't wanna set up a system. The system, the, the found…

Brad: [45:57] Domain registration

Ridd: [45:59] Right? Little things that to us are so table stakes, like just being able to get a basic website up that's, that's a lot of friction. I, I have a, I have a, a friend that's been dabbling in making, um, like SMS-based tools for local contractors. And what he kind of realized was, okay, one, they're very interested in this, but then two, they don't even have a website that works for them, you know? Where it's like if you blend the two, it's like I'll make, I'll make you the website. I'll do the upfront cost because we're good at it. You know, this is like what we kinda do. We'll understand the business, we'll set it up, and just kinda hand you something that's fully ready to go out of the box. It's not a tool. It is like- It's the set, it's the system. The whole thing is set up and you can almost like-- People will pay for that. They'll pay for that level of work, which you've made much more efficient with AI, and then they will also pay for the tool that is now continuing to run. And like what is this like hybrid-- How can we as designers, you're kind of freelancing, but you're also kind of building up leverage through like software tools that are generating recurring revenue, presumably. I don't know. I think there's like a really fun middle ground that when things are cheaper, when the barriers are lower, not building like a SaaS business, but you're not just freelancing, but you're building up a portfolio of things that you built that create ongoing value for people. I think there's like a really interesting area to play in there as somebody who has the goal of working for themselves by practicing the skill of design.

Brad: [47:40] Yeah Yeah That's beautiful And and at the heart of everything you're saying is are relationships between human beings and and there's there's like services that are provided but there's also the software like living and breathing and it's this sort of stew It's this orchestration of all of these different human systems and and uh software systems and beyond kinda make it all work And it feels good because you're able to kinda come together and again be able to have a conversation have shared understanding And historically it was like Oh that was like a nice meeting But if you're like showing up to this thing where it's like Here's this fully functioning system and the contractor says do it this way I snap a photo of this A actually I have a I have a buddy who was saying exactly this um cause he works for uh a software company that services like contractors who are like building houses And uh one dude has a specific workflow whereas like I take the pictures of going around getting ready for the inspection and then like what I want is to just be able to sort of like up upload those photos and then I'll like sort of say s things afterwards But then the next guy is like Well I like to sort of first like write a bunch of things and then like I'm kind of like and other stuff as as an afterthought And so it's very interesting cause you get into this well okay if you have like a good kind of vanilla system where all the things are possible the APIs sound So on and so forth all the backend stuff needs to just be kind of table stakes The actual experience layer could be like hyper-personalized to whatever individual preferences are I want this app to be this thing that helps me take these photos It's basically like a a glorified camera app

Ridd: [49:32] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [49:33] and then I'm able to speak my words into it and then it like turns it into structured data Okay cool Uh then the next person's like I want to be able to write these things and get them in that way and then I wanna be able to just like upload some photos like later or I have somebody else that does that Okay great So everybody a thing that is in the shape and form that their preferences and needs and it all comes together and it all works and it's all

Ridd: [50:02] Yeah.

Brad: [50:02] and you don't have to be like This damn thing This damn thing it never works for me

Ridd: [50:08] Yeah, or like I use 20% of the functionality. It's still worth me paying for it, but like I literally ignore 80% of the interface, you know? How many tools do we have where that's the case? Like that's so frequent. Like what's-- so what's the-- what a fun systems level design challenge, right? Like that's, that gets interesting. That gets so interesting on the, not only like the interface component level, but also the like the m- mental model level of like how much is shared, where, how much control do you give other people because they, they want some control, but they don't want all the control. It's not like fully dynamic or ma-- You

Brad: [50:42] Yep

Ridd: [50:43] interesting to think about that type of product, which I feel like we barely scratched the surface of, but it also feel, it just feels so obvious to me that that has to exist, you know?

Brad: [50:53] that And and and and whenever people are like Well yeah yeah If like if AI is is uh taking away my livelihood and and I'm used to sort of like drawing things around like this and like Well what do I do now That That What

Ridd: [51:10] Yeah.

Brad: [51:11] th there it is Like like

Ridd: [51:13] Yeah.

Brad: [51:14] When we have like a flat or one-dimensional view of like what a job is we miss out on the massive massive massive opportunities and just the infinite potential for for all of this stuff So it's like that's why I keep kind This this idea of like kind of constriction and expansion of like kind of getting through that hard process to ultimately get to a place where more people are waking up excited going Shit I could do anything

Ridd: [51:46] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [51:47] really is really I think important to to do like I guess I I I'll I'll ask you this question cause like obviously you have your own version of this You're like writing more code than ever before That's not your background Do you feel though that your background is still relevant to what you're doing in this day and age

Ridd: [52:11] I mean, yes, but maybe not for the answer that you were hoping that I would address because

Brad: [52:16] No I'm

Ridd: [52:17] I don't even really consider my background as a designer, honestly. Like, I designed interfaces every day on the internet for like seven years before I ever even considered the fact that my title was a designer. I was always just like a founder. I wanted to start things and make things. And when I first tried to learn how to code when I was like 18, I sucked. Tried to make like a solar system on Codecademy, and it kicked my ass. And I was like, "Well, I can't do that." And then I was like, "Well, I'm the only non-technical person. What else do I do? Well, I guess there's design." And then I cracked open Adobe Illustrator, and that's like started the whole thing, you know? And so I, I was doing design, but I was doing every non-technical task. I was doing all the support and all the sales. I was growing the business, you know. That was my early 20s. And it was only-- I think that is, yes, very much so. Very much so. And A-and even like my family, I never realized like the impact that my socialization experience had on me until I was maybe 30. But you kind of look back and you're like, "Oh, actually, a lot of people in my family just started things," you know. Very, very self-starter. That was what I was, you know, I grew up looking at relatives who all had their own businesses, and I guess it was just like always what I was going to do. So that's actually what my background is Am I-- And I think that's the greatest background in the world right now . You know? Everything we were talking about, I think, and AI in general rewards people who are self-starters, who are, gonna put their head down and just run through the wall, you know? I, I think that is kind of naturally I had a little bit of that in me, and AI just amplifies that. And so I view design more as a skill rather than an identity. and I like trying new things. I don't I get bored, man. I, I, I have to be working on things that are really life-giving for me. If I'm not, then they feel like work, and as soon as something feels like work, I like kinda put it away. That's not a great thing. Sometimes it's not a great thing at all. but like I ha- a-a-and that's why I have to be intentional about the things that I work on. Like I, I have to do something that I know will retain its game-like feel long enough for me to win purely based off of consistency and just showing up. If I can find that thing, good luck. No one can beat me, you know? 'Cause I'm having more fun than you, and I'll do it every single day and all my free time 'cause I'm having a really fun time. So if I can align those things, like I don't really care where it takes me, you know? Like I know that I'm gonna be working on fundamentally different things 10 years from now than I am today, and I don't care because you'll just figure it out every step of the way, and if you just follow what's interesting, then Good, good luck. Keep it up, you know? That's-- So it's a little bit of a different type of answer than maybe you were expecting, but that's kinda how I r- operate.

Brad: [55:01] I I think that you got into the heart of it and if I could like play it back to you uh you just described how you operate and a level of self-awareness and understanding that is baked into your genes it sounds like at a very deep level of Here are my tendencies Here is why I seek these cert certain kinds of experiences out Here is why I do these things Here is um you know h here is the Here are the conditions that I like to find myself And when I find myself in these conditions I know I'm going to have a good time And when I find myself in these different conditions I am self-aware enough to know isn't where I want to be and I need to in order to get back to a place that's more in line with my internal system And this I think is such an important moment in time for everybody to understand why they enjoy doing the things that they enjoy doing Because as you said the the what going to be doing what we're doing is changing all the time know the era Like we we came up in an era where The semblance of you know working at a place for 35 years and retiring and getting a gold watch was already n already not

Ridd: [56:29] Yeah.

Brad: [56:30] was like in our You know we were we were around the older generations who that was true for And I think that like in this day and age it's just like you know forget about it You know

Ridd: [56:43] Yeah.

Brad: [56:43] so th this this ability to to kind of like know know yourself and get into a place where I go Ah yes I'm wired in this way Here are the things I enjoy why do I enjoy the things that I enjoy That's like I think a good exercise is just like what what activities do I do Like what are my hobbies What are my You know what do I do for fun What do I do for work You know why why why right Why why do I do that And guess what

Ridd: [57:12] Yeah.

Brad: [57:12] help with that too

Ridd: [57:14] Yeah,

Brad: [57:14] Ta

Ridd: [57:14] I, agree.

Brad: [57:16] a look at take a look at my calendar and figure out like Help me draw some themes

Ridd: [57:22] Yeah. I,

Brad: [57:24] Yeah

Ridd: [57:24] so hopeful that more people work for themselves in the next, like, five years. Like, I, I think the stars are aligning in so many ways where it's… Like we talked about, like the, just the, the commercial line has dropped so far that all of a sudden there's this whole other class of opportunity that wasn't previously realistic, where it's like you can find stuff that overlaps with your interest. AI is good at doing that. It's less… You, you need way less upside to make it worthwhile for you, you know? Like, you don't… It was like the idea of like, I don't know, I guess… I, I know it's not this simple, but like in tech, I've often felt like you kinda get drawn toward two poles. You're either a freelancer working for yourself or you're a founder, you know, and you're like really go for it. I'm taking this massive swing and putting all of my eggs into this basket, you know? And it's like, middle ground's really rich now, where it's like, "No, I just work for myself." Like, sometimes I, I real- I mean, sometimes, every single time somebody asks me what I do, I panic. I have no idea what to say 'cause I don't have a good, I don't have a good answer. I would imagine in times maybe you felt like you don't have an amazing answer too, but it's kind of a cool thing, you know? It's like you almost have this, this like interconnected portfolio of bets and interests that together make your career and, and the ability to put foo-food on the table. And I think all of a sudden, I think a lot of people could, could have that setup where it's like, "Well, I kind of… I do this thing over here, and I kind of do this thing over here, and, uh, and I have this one client that I help, or I, I, I help with this thing over here. And, uh, yeah, I don't know. Like that's just what I do," you know? How cool would it be if a bunch of people that had the skill set of finding and executing against problems were able to have that type of answer versus, "I work for X," period. You know? I'd love that world. I think, I think, I hope that that world is like quickly coming to us and that there's this moment of time where the early adopters who make the jump have the ability to play on, you know, an easier mode just because there's all of this untapped opportunity given the, the, the, the cost line has diminished.

Brad: [59:35] Yeah No I think I think that that you're onto something there And if I look at at kind of how I've been operating I've been running my business since 2013 It's always been very tricky cause yeah whatever uh people don't know what to make of me Cause yeah I I've spoken at conferences and they're like Brad what do we put for your like company logo And I was like Ah What what's your title Uh

Ridd: [1:00:00] I had that when I interviewed you like a year ago. I'm like, "What's this dude's title?" I'm like, "I have no idea what to put as this dude's title." I love that. I love that.

Brad: [1:00:09] But I think that you're picking at something that's very important because it's And it gets to the heart of I think like how how human beings like operate and behave It's like we we kinda crave a a a clean answer to to a question And I think that there's Un unfortunately this moment has kinda shattered any like semblance that that there is a clean answer to problems Like who are you and what do you do Like or or what's this what's this for Or how do you make money pick this road or this road

Ridd: [1:00:46] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [1:00:47] Guess what Guess what Those things were never true And and I think that you're right to say that yeah there's like kind of a a subset of people who are entrepreneurial in nature that you'll you'll find are the people that are able to kind of navigate that fuzziness But I think that that's being inflicted on everybody right now and I think that that's a lot of the the source of a lot of people's anxiety is for I if you aren't wired in that way It's it's it it can feel again that that kind of constricting of shit like this this thing that I know to be true might not be true anymore and that's very very scary Tell me if you disagree with it or not but uh I don't think perhaps this runs counter to founder culture startup life or anything like that that there are the the That you got it or you don't I think anything can be learned and that there's there's certain natural tendencies that we have but we're able to and expand our perspectives and new skills and

Ridd: [1:01:53] Tell me.

Brad: [1:01:54] like getting comfortable braving the unknown and operating in like a weird fuzzy place where there aren't clean answers to to complex problems how do you teach that

Ridd: [1:02:06] It's weird. Like, a lot of it is knowledge transfer, but I think also it's just forcibly pulling someone along for the very first step, and then once you take the first step, you realize, "Oh, I'm in the room now. I made this room really, really scary and opaque in my head, but it's actually not that bad, and I can just look at the next step. It's right there. Like, now I see the next step. I can just take it," you know? Like, "Oh, cool, now there's another one. Okay, I'll take that one next," you know? So like I, I really think just the first step is the really, really, really difficult one,

Brad: [1:02:37] Yes

Ridd: [1:02:37] and I think it's also quite difficult sometimes to convince someone to take it with just words. You kinda gotta push them a little bit, which is why the problem-- I, I struggle to imagine how it is- Solved effectively at scale, I guess. But like I'll give you an example. It's actually the guy that was, um… He's building the tooling for the local contractors. I've given pieces of the story, I'll tell it real quickly, which is like I made this thing for my dad. I didn't really have time to support it and was realizing like, "Oh, actually, maybe there's something here." And then I met this guy who came to my house from, um, he lives in Africa. One in a billion chance that this dude walked into my door, uh, because of his schooling journey and everything, and he had just graduated with a computer science degree from the local college. So I naturally started talking to him and, and, I, I think he had the blinders on from, you know, an education, a four-year education. Like he had no idea how the world actually worked, you know? So I,

Brad: [1:03:29] yeah

Ridd: [1:03:30] him under my wing a little bit and was like: "Listen, man, you gotta do things a little bit differently in certain ways." And, um, and he showed a curiosity, so I kind of just invested him.

And then he told me one day, he's like: [1:03:38] "I need to, I, I need to get a job to stay in the US" based off of whatever his situation is. I'm not gonna pretend like I know the acronyms. and I'm kinda… I like the guy, and I was like: "Okay, well, what if I just hired you?" All he had to do was have a tech company hire him.

So I was like: [1:03:55] "I'll just hire you. I'll pay you whatever your bare minimum, break even, what do you need?" kind of thing to just do life, and then you can explore and build things outside of the pressure. And so he started helping with my dad's thing, and then we were like, well, what if this is like a, another business? And now he's been working on, uh, now he's building contracting tools for a couple other local businesses. And, he didn't even realize the transformation that happened. But there was this m- there was this moment like one time where he's like, you know, "What do I do?" Instead of telling him, I just said, "Come over to my house." We stood right here at my desk. I did it standing mode, and I just said, "Okay, this is, this is Claude. This is how we're gonna approach the question of what do we do and get it to do research for us and help us guide and…" You know, and I just unlocked him one time, and now this dude is like going out and like cold calling local businesses, building websites for local companies. He just pitched at the local like, um, uh, like startup event kind of thing. He's actively in, uh, due diligence with like a local fund who's gonna give him a grant to, to like double down on things. And he's taken the next 15 steps way faster and more aggressively than I could have predicted. But all it took was just like, I just had to just shove him forward with the first step, and then he just do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. And now he's hooked,

Brad: [1:05:13] Mm-hmm

Ridd: [1:05:13] and he's good at building, and he's like doing sales, learning how to write cold emails, learning what a SAFe is. And it's like How many more people can you give that experience to, you know? Y-you just take the first, like just come in the room. Just see that the room's not scary, and there's actually a staircase in front of you, you know?

Brad: [1:05:30] And and you're there to to guide and support and

Ridd: [1:05:34] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [1:05:34] and that's and that's the thing right It's it is scary There's a reason why people can't do solo jumps out of an airplane by themselves

Ridd: [1:05:46] Yep.

Brad: [1:05:46] do it it's like you need your buddy You need the buddy system and the the conditions and by which people feel psychologically safe to go I'm doing this for the first time What do I do Or I'm getting stuck here and like Is anybody Like are you going to laugh me out of the room Uh one of the things that that we experience so often is and just have to remind people of and I hate to say it but like e es especially women it's just like beginning sentences with an apology Like

Ridd: [1:06:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Brad: [1:06:23] w you're exactly where you need to be right now Like there there's no apology needed We're you're we're making first contact with a brand-new way of doing things which by the way we don't know what the fuck we're doing either right Like we're we're we're we're only just a few more reps

Ridd: [1:06:40] Yeah, one rung on the ladder.

Brad: [1:06:42] So so how do we collectively right as as an industry as a community as in everything the conditions by which more people can have that experience It's a beautiful beautiful story and beautiful experience and and I think that that is the opportunity gets out of the th that that scarcity mindset of but wait a minute if you if you teach them how to do this then like then what if that cuts in on your thing And then you realize that oh yeah that's just yet another story that is uh has been perpetuated for far too long So it's like i this is the the the time not speaking hypothetically that it's like a lot of that stuff can be dismantled and you can arrive at a place where people the picture you're painting is beautiful which is Helping each other out taking on this job doing this it breathes We we're all just a bunch of Venn diagrams walking around and sometimes we're closer together and we're

Ridd: [1:07:46] I like that.

Brad: [1:07:48] help And like Okay and then yep maybe Like we could collaborate on a project right now and we could do it without feeling like hey we gotta sign a contract uh and and you know become co-founders and what's your role gonna be and we're gonna s fire up a new LLC Nope we could actually just do some work together hang around one another do a thing We're we're more overlapped but then we but then that project ends and then we move on to life and you could create that space and that that overlap with like as many people as you encounter in your life And it's 100 possible and everybody finds a way to make two and two or it to to add up to four whether that's your it's two plus two equals four whether it's one plus one plus one plus one equals four whether it's pi plus whatever This is 100 possible and this is 100 necessary right now And again it's like when y when you look out whether it's in Kalamazoo or Pittsburgh or anywhere else and you just again look at the just kind of bleak depressing hellscape that sometimes it can look like Like when when you j Like I always just beeline it to who looks like they're having fun at their job I dial way in

Ridd: [1:09:04] Yeah.

Brad: [1:09:05] is like a signal You got And all you need to do is like travel elsewhere where you're like Oh these people don't seem to hate their

Ridd: [1:09:11] Yeah.

Brad: [1:09:13] You know Like everyone deserves to be like You know if you're the barista at that coffee shop that you're meeting your new pal it's like y are they cool or d are they like are they happy to be there or are they like hating life Hopefully baristas seem to in general be a little bit more more happy or whatever But most places gas station attendants you know grocery stores just just a lot of people are just like You could just tell like they're beaten down they're living in conditions by That that aren't conducive to flourishing to thriving It's a struggle It doesn't need to be a struggle So what what do we collectively do make it not be a struggle th this is why these conversations I think are so important Because it's it's it's it's taking all the other bullshit away and a lot of those other narratives that are at least partially true but they're not telling the whole story And I think that like we need to help people understand where this can go

Ridd: [1:10:17] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [1:10:17] And and and we're I think it's important to say that just because we're saying this doesn't mean that it's gonna happen or that it's a given or that it's Like no Th that that's the work That's just the work that's required and that's that's good and important work that we kinda collectively need to do control

Ridd: [1:10:38] There's less of a tie to the old, like, world system and hierarchies in a way that's pretty interesting too. Like, it's no surprise that the people who complain about AI are the ones who have achieved a, uh, I don't wanna use the word defensible again, but like, you know, they're well-positioned in today's world, and maybe they are more experienced, you know? Of course, they would be upset because it's, like, their work and their position that's in jeopardy, you

Brad: [1:11:05] Yep

Ridd: [1:11:06] But like, going back to this guy that I'm, that I'm was talking about, that I was kinda mentoring, like, I, I don't want people to, to interpret everything that we're talking around through the like, "Well, we just need more. We need more people mentoring others." We do. Like, that's fantastic, but that even is, like, bred from this hierarchical chain that is tied to, like, experience and reps. The fact is, like, what AI has done is flattened so much, right? Like, everything's just as new for me as it is for this guy. And yeah, maybe I was able to jumpstart him, but now, dude, he's flying, man. Like, he's made some way crazier stuff with AI than I have, and I have now as much to learn about certain things from him as he does from me. And two years ago, there would've been almost no slice of software where that could've possibly been true in under six months, right? There's no way that he could've learned anything in six months that I could've also learned from. There's just no way. I

Brad: [1:12:09] Yeah Yeah

Ridd: [1:12:10] 15 years on him, you know? But now he'll come up and be like, "Oh, dude, I figured this thing out. Look at this." And I'm like, "Holy shit. Are you serious? How did you do that?" You know? Be damned with the experience. Like, everything's just so new. There's so much opportunity for, for curiosity, and everything's advancing more quickly than any one individual can learn. And so I feel confident that that window of opportunity Where it rewards the curious will not only stay open, but actually grow for at least a little bit. You know? Like we- we're, we're very clearly still on the ascent and, and, and nobody really knows where this is going. It's like you could be fresh out of school and be a… Like actually pushing the frontier of things, which has never happened. That's never happened before. Maybe since like the dawn of literacy at scale, like that's never happened before.

Brad: [1:12:59] Yes Yes Mm-hmm

Ridd: [1:13:00] I get hyped about, I get hyped about the op- I'm an optimist, if you can't tell. You know? It's like I, I want people to leave inspired and to, to like understand that there is real opportunity regardless of your circumstance or current standing in whatever your world looks like.

Brad: [1:13:18] That's uh I think that that's so important to just underscore triple underscore and this is something that I I no doubt in my mind you you hear the same as I do People go well who am I

Ridd: [1:13:30] Yeah.

Brad: [1:13:32] you know This has already been said or You already talked about this so I c I can't talk about this or whatever And so incredibly important for people to understand that that yeah your your pal that that you helped get going it's like the fact that he is from Africa gone through this program lived life a certain way has these certain things has these experiences no other person on the planet has had that exact experience Just as anybody living uh in this moment listening to this conversation has had the exact experience that you have And when you as you just rightly said everything is flattened and all of this is within reach and you're empowered of a sudden your whole life your interests your hobbies your experience where you've been where you've traveled what you've seen all of that becomes in play Like

Ridd: [1:14:31] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [1:14:32] are you you are valuable because you're a human being who has lived on this earth and you've you've you've walked a path in life that's gotten you to where you're at now And now you're you're here And sure yeah people like us might have like a few more notches on on the belt or whatever phrase you wanna use for it it's for in terms of like actual experience But I think that you're 100 right that it's just like here is opportunity You take what about You take what you value You take good stuff You take what you see in the world and and you can make things better with it

Ridd: [1:15:14] Yeah. Well said. Well said. It's not hard to get me going.

Brad: [1:15:19] it's great It's great It's great And again but but j but just maybe like last quick thing cause it's like tends to get misconstrued Could you speak to that like a little bit Just like around like h has there ever been like times where they're just like Oh Red you're just you're just like you're being naive here Like

Ridd: [1:15:36] naivety was the word I was gonna say,

Brad: [1:15:38] you're

Ridd: [1:15:38] yeah.

Brad: [1:15:39] things Yeah

Ridd: [1:15:40] Yeah, the disclaimer is I've, I've literally been to counseling about this. I, I so get drawn to optimistic outcomes, and I find it… I don't know. There's two ways to look at it. Like one, is there an element of it where it's like a source of denial, and actually it's like a coping internally? Yeah. My counselor would say yes, that there is an element of that. I also think that there is incredible alpha in being optimistic, and optimism is typically what lends itself to early adoption too. I like to be an early adopter. You wouldn't try things and be one of the first to experiment and tinker and explore a given anything if you didn't lend yourself to being slightly optimistic that it'll be worthwhile, and you're not gonna just waste your time, get hurt, you know, lose money, anything, you know? Like, uh, you have to expect optimistic outcomes to be at the front. I think anybody that can assemble basic logic building blocks can arrive at the conclusion that there's real value in being at the front right now. Like in-- Uh, I don't know how long the window's gonna be open. Like not 10 years. I don't know. Like there's a window though. Like any, anytime there's a transitionary period, there's windows 'cause things get reshuffled. Um, s- my friend Saleo would call it like a jump ball. Like we're living in this great jump ball where like everything's kind of up for grabs again because everybody, regardless of where they were at, had to kind of cross the chasm. So if you are optimistic, you'll sprint across the chasm 'cause it's like you expect it to be better on the other side. And if you're on the other side more quickly, then there are untapped opportunities that are derived from very r-real first movers advantage at almost any level of society, you know? Therefore, why not be an optimist? You know? Like why would I not be an optimist right now? I-- That's, that's how I think about it

Brad: [1:17:41] Yeah Yeah No that's that's fantastic I I I love There's a lot of really good visual imagery you just shared there

Ridd: [1:17:49] I, I audibly process. So I'm like, I'm not kidding, I've never thought about that visual image before, but you asked the question, and then I kind of started talking. I'm like, "Well, that actually makes a lot of sense."

Brad: [1:17:58] Yeah It's amazing and and also I think like the the the counselor's words

Ridd: [1:18:04] Very correct.

Brad: [1:18:05] to

Ridd: [1:18:06] Very correct.

Brad: [1:18:07] but but also a lot of it and my friend Rebecca said it really well it's just like it's it's not necessarily like it doesn't have to be necessarily like a form of of denial Like there can be a recognition with it but it's just like a a willingness to just kind of dwell or stew in the problem statement versus the Okay I understand it Where do we go

Ridd: [1:18:30] Yeah.

Brad: [1:18:33] And

Ridd: [1:18:34] Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Brad: [1:18:36] and I think it requires It takes all kinds obviously because I think that that people who who aren't wired that way are very good at at kind of helping define and and sort of the the problems to be solved and that's where I think that it's like a healthy balance and blend of a lot of people working together And and there's there's kind of like a a beautiful kind of tension that comes with uh op the optimist trying to pull a bunch of people across the line but then they sort of serve as as some important breaks and stuff And so so it doesn't It's rather than like a competition where people are like winning and losing and if you get here faster then you get all the gold it's like Like what does it look like to kind of like come together as a diverse group of of people kind of hitting things from different angles and getting to a healthier place together responsibly so

Ridd: [1:19:29] I think, I think that's a good point. You're, you're… You don't want it to f- Are there gold rush elements to it? Yeah, of course. Uh, we live in a capitalistic society. Like, we would be naive to say that there's not elements of that. But I, I do think about it more like, um, another analogy, or is that a metaphor? I'm not sure. But like a visual is like, you know, the, the train's kind of leaving the station, you know? Where it's like,

Brad: [1:19:49] Mm-hmm

Ridd: [1:19:50] more people on the train. You know? Like, like, "Come on, guys." Like the, " We're going." Like, you know, "We're, we're going. Do you wanna come?" You know? "It's v-- I, I… It's gonna be fun. I don't exactly know where we're going, but I'm sure it's gonna be great, right? Trust me." There's, there's an element of that too.

Brad: [1:20:06] I love it I love it Well it Train train or no train or or whatever I think that that just like starting to like paint a picture of it's like hey this is like good health Like this is this is a place to be and that it makes a lot of sense to work towards that more expansive attitude towards things rather than the the the walls are closing

Ridd: [1:20:30] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [1:20:31] me kind of thing And and I think that there's a lot to be said about just uh I think you're doing a a good service in in kind of helping paint a picture for people of like here here is this this this landscape that that is fertile that is unexplored Yeah that's a little scary but at the same time that is that is why know we continue to to move forward despite the the fog of what's ahead of us is like we kind of have to chart out these paths And scary in many respects but also really exciting and it's ultimately what we make of it So I think that there again like just as we've talked about here is there's a lot of opportunities to make ways of of being and operating and of that's within reach especially now that we can just kind of supercharge people's potential

Ridd: [1:21:21] Yeah.

Brad: [1:21:23] with these new technologies So pretty cool Uh well thank you Thank you so much for this This is this is great This is a We're recording this on a Friday It's a fantastic way of going into

Ridd: [1:21:33] it's good Friday energy. You injected it right in the beginning of the conversation. You set the tone, Friday energy. This is a Friday conversation.

Brad: [1:21:40] Friday conversation A pretty deep Friday conversation if I

Ridd: [1:21:44] Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

Brad: [1:21:45] and only other sort of structured part of the show is is what music do you want more people to know about

Ridd: [1:21:50] I, I knew this question was coming, and I… It's stressing me out 'cause I love discovering music, so I'm like so much. Can I give two? Can I give two?

Brad: [1:21:59] You you most

Ridd: [1:22:00] Okay.

Brad: [1:22:00] can

Ridd: [1:22:01] Okay, I gotta give two 'cause there's, like, just very different types. So

Brad: [1:22:03] Wild

Ridd: [1:22:06] basically at all times. Uh, I've had instrumental music going on softly in my headphones this entire conversation, and I have it on for every conversation that I ever do because I think I get a little bit weird without it. Yeah, it's… People think it's odd, but, like, I get odd when I don't have music going while I'm

Brad: [1:22:23] Yeah

Ridd: [1:22:24] I get kinda,

Brad: [1:22:25] wild

Ridd: [1:22:26] that requires, you know, I can't have any lyrics, obviously, so I have different, l- energy levels, um, to the different types of music. And in the middle ground, that has just been a staple, like, I've been a top 0.1% fan on Spotify for, like, uh, over 10 years now, is, um, Emancipator. You ever listen to Emancipator?

Brad: [1:22:49] I

Ridd: [1:22:51] I was hoping you hadn't heard. Now I'm glad that I gave two. Emancipator is really good work music. It's just really good. It's, it's just repetitive enough where it's not distracting. It's not like, you know, dubsteppy or too four on the floor where it's, like, too high energy, but it's not gonna put you to sleep either. It's just good, focused music. Cannot recommend Emancipator enough. I've-- G- I, I, I would… Maybe other than, like, close relatives, I just can't imagine that anybody has listened to more Emancipator over the last decade of their lives than, than I have.

Brad: [1:23:24] Amazing Amazing

Ridd: [1:23:26] So, so that's a good one.

Brad: [1:23:29] f uh he went to to school in uh my wife's hometown But anyways I

Ridd: [1:23:34] Really? Okay. I, I would be curious what you think. It, it's… Again, it's like I only listen to it while being creative and working on tasks. Like, it's not like a drive-around-the-car music. It's like f- I'm thinking. It supports thinking, basically.

Brad: [1:23:46] I love it

Ridd: [1:23:51] listening to a lot in the last, maybe tie back to last summer. But I, I don't really listen to albums that much. Nah, I, I like discovering music, so I'm always on-- just trying to discover different radios or playlists, just, just get me out of my comfort zone. And what ends up happening is I save individual songs to my own playlists. And so sometimes it takes me a while to realize, "Whoa, I actually really like this artist," because I've saved like six of their songs individually, and then I'll put it together and I'm like, "Oh, whoa." And then I click on, like, their artist page for the first time, and I realize I have the green checks by, like, their top six songs. I'm like, "Oh, I guess I'm a fan. I didn't even know I was a fan. I guess I'm a fan." Layup. Layup is my latest one where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I've saved all their music individually." I love… The guy's voice is a little different, a little bit polarizing. I'm assuming, I'm gonna assume you haven't heard of Layup. Have you heard of Layup? This one's like… It's only like two million monthlies on Spotify, so it's not h- not huge. it's great music. It makes you feel good. The guy's voice is very unique. Maybe you wouldn't like it. I like it. And the… I don't normally care about lyrics and much more what's the music making me feel, and unless they're, like,

Brad: [1:25:02] Sure

Ridd: [1:25:05] to me, I don't, I just don't even… It's just an instrument to me.

Brad: [1:25:08] Yeah Yeah

Ridd: [1:25:09] and except Layup's messaging is great. It's like, it's really encouraging, uh, in so many ways. Um, a lot of things speak to me as, like, a young father. A lot of things are just about, like, enjoying moment or being kind to people. It's very c- consistently just messaging that I feel good about supporting and, like, it resonates. And so

Brad: [1:25:31] Beautiful

Ridd: [1:25:32] uh, a, a, a big plus one to Layup. B- quickly become a fan.

Brad: [1:25:37] Beautiful Yeah that's amazing So yeah all right Emancipator and Layup And and again back to back to the my little idea I'm like oh yeah maybe it's the threshold that gets crossed where as soon as you like like two

Ridd: [1:25:49] Yes.

Brad: [1:25:50] of the songs

Ridd: [1:25:51] Yeah.

Brad: [1:25:51] the thing where it's like it hits you with the like hey you really you really like this artist um that you've just been ambiently listening to And I think that that that's that's really cool that you It sounds like you're you're kind of aggressive with your like button it maybe a little bit

Ridd: [1:26:08] I add to playlist, which also likes it.

Brad: [1:26:11] Okay. Sure, sure

Ridd: [1:26:12] I curate, the, the playlist like, uh… I used to run a music blog, so that kind of has like trickled into my… I go way weird with Spotify. I have so many. If I'm ever in a moment where I feel like I don't have the perfect Spotify playlist, I create one, I date it, and describe the moment in the description text, and then I populate the playlist. So I have this like set of playlists that are all tied to moments when I realized that its existence was warranted.

Brad: [1:26:36] We're gonna do a follow-up session where I wanna, I wanna see the inner workings of

Ridd: [1:26:40] Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad: [1:26:44] Amazing. Well, thank you so much for, for, for being here, and for, for everything, and for sharing what you share into the world. And, uh, uh, for those of you that, uh, or people who are listening that don't know who you are and where to find you and stuff, where, where could they go and follow along with what you're up to?

Ridd: [1:27:03] Yeah, m- dive.club is my podcast. Almost everything kinda goes through there. If you're on Twitter is where I mostly hang out, so rid_design is… That's kinda home base for me. If you, if you s- Google me on… I'm on LinkedIn technically too, but Twitter is like kinda, that's the home base, so find me there.

Brad: [1:27:26] I- that's a good T-shirt. I'm on Twink- uh, I'm on LinkedIn technically.

Ridd: [1:27:30] I actually really like that, yeah.

Brad: [1:27:33] Well, cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. Uh, it's been a real treat, and, uh, happy Friday. Happy weekend.

Ridd: [1:27:39] Yeah, you too. I appreciate you having me on, Brad. I've, I've, uh, consumed all of your writing and stuff for many, many years, so even just getting to hang is an honor. I appreciate it.

Brad: [1:27:47] Yeah, it's great. It was great. Thank you.