Homeschooling, Community Confidence, and Being Human at Work with Abby Covert

Brad: [0:12] Hey, Abby.

Abby Covert (she/her): [0:13] Hey, Brad

Brad: [0:14] All right, let's get into it. What has you waking up excited these days?

Abby Covert (she/her): [0:18] I brought two things. So one is very life and one is very work. Uh, the life thing is we are finishing up first grade as a homeschool family. So my kid learned how to read this year, and I

Brad: [0:31] Wow.

Abby Covert (she/her): [0:32] is cool. and yeah, it's been like a big moment in our household. We got to go to Epic Universe, which is a new theme park here in Florida that just opened last year. to celebrate him hitting his reading milestone, uh, last week.

Brad: [0:45] amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [0:45] that's been like

Brad: [0:46] Ah, congratulations. That's huge.

Abby Covert (she/her): [0:49] Yeah. I'm working on the homeschool portfolio right now, and it's a lot of work to put together 'cause we have like a review with the state at the end of every school year, and they have to see like

Brad: [0:57] Wow.

Abby Covert (she/her): [0:58] of everything, so working on all that. Um, so That's, my life thing that I'm very excited about, and also designing second grade is super fun. and then the work thing I'm really excited about is we're working on an event called the SenseMaker Salon at the SenseMakers Club, uh, which I run, I'm not doing it, which is the best news ever because I'm a recovering workaholic micromanager. So there's an amazing volunteer team that like every day I wake up excited to see that they're making progress without me having to do anything, um, other than believe in them. So that's kind of my two things right now.

Brad: [1:30] that's incredible. Look, So the one is, is like you're, you're able to devote your energy towards your, your family, your, y- your son's progression, and you get to see the, the fruits of all of that labor, that hands-on labor,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:45] Yeah. It's amazing.

Brad: [1:45] then that's, that's come as a result of you delegating and…

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:50] Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. Like, I think about that all the time in terms of like I lo- I left my corporate world like six years ago.

Brad: [1:57] Okay.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:58] when I did that, I wasn't sure like exactly what that was gonna look like or how long that would go on for, but it, it occurs to me now that it took me all of that time to build this net that would need to catch me my kid, I didn't intend to homeschool. Like, we just, we went in that direction out of pure duress. Um, so yeah, we're, we're sort of like making it up as we go, but also somehow all of the decisions that I made over the last like 10 years have really like equaled, this being something we could accept like as a change. So yeah, it's

Brad: [2:28] Wow. Yeah. Boy, boy, oh boy, do I relate to that. It's like there's, there's all this, like, very strange groundwork that you don't know you're doing, that ends up coming to, to really put a foundation in front of you that you're like, "Boy, oh boy, I'm glad that I busted my ass and did those things and,

Abby Covert (she/her): [2:49] Yep.

Brad: [2:50] know it at the time, but now I'm reaping the, the, the rewards of that." That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [2:54] Yeah, and sometimes

Brad: [2:55] s-

Abby Covert (she/her): [2:55] is

Brad: [2:56] s-

Abby Covert (she/her): [2:57] You know, like learning to read. I I've had this conversation with my kid many times about like, "You know, you gotta learn to read because it lets you do other things." And he doesn't want to read. It's like his least favorite thing. He's a math person.

Brad: [3:07] Uh,

Abby Covert (she/her): [3:08] he's

Brad: [3:08] yeah. Okay.

Abby Covert (she/her): [3:10] Um, and I keep telling him like, "You gotta be able to do this thing you don't wanna do, so you can do all these things that you do wanna do." Um, and I feel like that a lot about the choices that I've made. It's like it hasn't always been the most comfortable choice, but ultimately it's like leading towards what I do wanna do,

Brad: [3:26] Yeah. Well, and, and it sounds like you crossed this threshold that, that is ultimately, like, a pretty big ass decision of saying, like, leaving, the comforts or, or the, the… Whether, whether you can-- we could unpack what, what comforts are,

Abby Covert (she/her): [3:41] we

Brad: [3:41] but like

Abby Covert (she/her): [3:42] but

Brad: [3:42] stu- Yeah. Yeah. But, but an existing job, right? And sort of out into the brave unknown, uh, doing your own thing and stuff, and, uh, that's all part of it, and I'm sure that that brought with it a whole bunch of things that you didn't necessarily want to do, but had to do in order to get to where you wanna go.

Abby Covert (she/her): [4:02] There's a lot about being a small business that I don't wanna do, but I continue to do because I want to be a small business. You know? Like that's… I do

Brad: [4:10] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [4:10] small business, but it comes with a

Brad: [4:12] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [4:13] that I could do without. You know? It, it was, it was nice when all that stuff was handled, but then I also think about the loss of freedom that I had in that, in that context. And Yeah. I wouldn't

Brad: [4:23] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [4:23] it

Brad: [4:23] Yeah. I think that there's no getting around that just anything you get into is gonna have a lot of aspects that you don't enjoy, or it's not what is your calling, but you recognize it as that, like you're saying to your son, you do this to do these other things, and it, it unlocks, in your case, like, freedom and autonomy and the ability to, to make your own path.

Abby Covert (she/her): [4:51] Yeah, and you have to be bad at things. I'm not good at being bad at things. Are you good at being bad at things, Brad? I'm not good at being bad at things

Brad: [4:58] I've I've learned. I've learned. I've learned how to, to be bad at, at, at things and to just, like… Uh, so much of it has to do-- Whenever you get thrown into a bunch of hard- And you're into just brand-new terrain, and I, I'm sure you've, you've encountered your own version of that. But whenever you just are like, "Oh, cool. Now all of a sudden I need to, um, navigate a healthcare system and coordinate between three different medical teams in this very dicey situation and, uh, and also take care of all this other stuff at the same time," kind of, like, learn to accept that you're like, "Yeah, I'm bad at this," or, "I don't understand this," I have really no choice but to kind of, like, embrace that and just roll with it And, and frankly, I think that it's very liberating to just, like, be upfront and transparent with that. I think I see a lot of people get twisted into, to pretzels about not wanting to show their ass, that not wanting to show that it's like, "I, I don't, I actually don't know what I'm doing. I've never done this before." In fact, I just got off of a call where that was the case. And, and, and the, the, p- the person is knowingly like, like, they're, you know, a more junior person, more of a, like, an apprentice kind of situation. But I think that there's, there's a real hesitancy You know, y- you wanna do a good job, you wanna prove yourself, you wanna be competent and s- perceived as such. boy, oh boy, I feel like the LinkedIn landscape, the, the state of affairs, I feel like there's not a lot of room for that kind of just, like, vulnerability or owning just, "Hey, yeah, I don't know, I don't know about this."

Abby Covert (she/her): [6:43] Yeah. No, I feel like " everybody is … No,

Brad: [6:45] I'm ba- I'm bad at this."

Abby Covert (she/her): [6:47] pick, pick a specialty and get it into a sentence that you can put at the bottom of every post or perish. Like, that's where we're at. And like I- We've completely eliminated the ability to explore. Like, I feel like, you know, in the, in the internet that you and I came up on, you had the ability to explore. You could completely change your focus, and that was okay 'cause you had relative control over, like, what the internet knew about you We don't have that

Brad: [7:12] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [7:12] We don't have that. It is completely out of our hands, and I think, you know, for, for people that are in our generation, you know, we didn't have to battle that in terms of coming through.

Brad: [7:23] Hmm

Abby Covert (she/her): [7:23] got to have that experimentation phase be quiet and in private, relative private, you know? Versus now, you're failing in public, and I think that that's a really hard thing for people to, to grasp. it's something that I see as just, like, trauma from the corporate world. Like, I see this all the time when just, uh, training discussion leaders at the SenseMakers Club that, like, I have to be the one that reminds them that they're a person and that their time matters, and that they matter, and let them having the time to have lunch matters. Like, they're so beaten down in some cases by these systems

Brad: [7:57] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [7:58] it's hard

Brad: [7:59] Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): [7:59] behave any other way, you know? Because you've been incentivized to stay in that, in that place for so long, so

Brad: [8:05] No, and, and that's, that's a real service that you're giving people and a real gift that you're giving people, and that, look at us. You know, we're, we're all a bunch of just human beings wearing clothes, living life, you know, sending kids to school, going to bed, you know, getting hungry." And it is so wild that we've kind of invented these whole worlds that-- where we kind of pretend that this shit doesn't exist.

Abby Covert (she/her): [8:32] it's so, it's so wild, and also, like, we pretend that we're not all making shit up all day long. the entire thing is made up, all of it, from the very beginning. Go back, forefathers, made up. Go back further, made up. All of it, made up, which means we can make it up, which I, I feel like that's something that I was, I was given early in life, that, that perspective of, like, you can just make it up. Like, you could just

Brad: [8:56] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [8:56] what you wanna do and then do that. And I don't even think that that was, like, necessarily a good trait to have. Like, in my early 20s I think it was a little bit like a bulldozer. but now that it's softened, I feel like, yeah, I, I kind of feel about it in terms of, like, I feel like it's my responsibility to tell other people that. That, like, you're, you're allowed to make shit up. Like, I remember a couple years ago I was working with, um, Alfie Lowe, who's a, a very close thought partner of m- mine, and he was working on this diagram, and it was, um, like a renovation on the Ikigai, which is, like, the Japanese, uh, foundational idea of how to find, like, um, like a purpose in your life. And it's, it had been rendered, 100 years later by some dude as a Venn diagram. And so Alfie was, like, playing with it and playing with it, and he kept holding onto this person's language. And I was like, "Dude, why don't you just change it? It doesn't make sense for what you're doing." And he was like "I can't do that. you can't do that." I'm like, "No, you literally can. Open the document and change the label, and then put, like, a citation that that's where you started, and you're done. Like, move

Brad: [9:57] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [9:58] And

Brad: [9:59] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [9:59] kind of lesson, I think, is something that I've found myself having to give to more, um, people coming up in today's environment than I think we were had to… I think it was very, like, um, that that's what was going on back when we came through. But now it's not

Brad: [10:12] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [10:13] Need to be told. Like, the idea that people haven't, um, written all the books, given all the talks. I can't tell you how many people I talk to and they're just like, Yeah. but people have already given a talk about that thing." I'm like, Yeah. but you haven't. Like, your jokes are gonna be different. Your examples are gonna be fresher. Your comparisons are gonna be something we've never thought of before. Like, and you're robbing us of that right now."

Brad: [10:34] Yeah. Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): [10:35] that more people than I would expect need to hear, and that's, like, all they need. You push them with that little thing, and then it's just like, See ya." That, worked. Nice.

Brad: [10:45] what gets unlocked in that is i- is, is a richer existence for everybody, right? We are all the beneficiaries whenever more people are out there sharing their perspectives and, and, you know, it, it really takes… I always think of just, like, like the scientific method, right? It- You can't just kind of, uh, the, the whole narrative of, of these single geniuses and whatever, it's like, nah, dude, like, all of this stuff has to be hit from every single angle, and it requires just different perspectives to all kind of like arrive in the same general ballpark, even if you tweak the label. It's like, ah, yes, like this is the conceptually, like, what we're all kind of picking at here. And it's really, really cool to see that whenever you, y- you realize that it's just all, oh yeah, we're all just a bunch of overlapping Venn diagrams, and we're all kind of trying to figure out the, the bits that are, that are shared be- between us. And there's, there's a lot. There's a lot. But, but each of us has our own wholly unique experience. And like, that, that, that, the-- It's, it, it is truly stunning that when you think about, uh, uh… Is it… I always forget, like, like how to pronounce it, is like solipsism, right? Where it's like, yeah, you're the only person- You can be sure to exist, right? And how you perceive red or how you perceive a color, you can only gauge that for yourself.

Abby Covert (she/her): [12:20] Yeah

Brad: [12:21] So that, so it really takes, like, a bunch of people in aggregate that are able to be like, "You seeing what I'm seeing?" Like, whenever you describe that or you, you, you say that or you hear the sound in a certain way, you're like, "You hear that, too?

Abby Covert (she/her): [12:36] It does sound

Brad: [12:36] that, too?"

Abby Covert (she/her): [12:37] we don't know. We don't know. Like, we're all agreeing that red is red, but we honestly don't know. Like, my red could be purple, and your red could

Brad: [12:44] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [12:45] and

Brad: [12:45] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [12:46] know how we would know. Like, that's, that's the wild part about information. Like, so I've spent

Brad: [12:51] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [12:52] career s- focusing on information architecture, and the reason is because information is the most sketchy material on Earth. it's unbelievable. It leaks all over everything. It comes out of all things, and the most interesting part about it is that it doesn't exist outside of the mind of the person doing the interpreting. So

Brad: [13:10] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [13:10] content is out here, content. But what I think about this and what I call it, that's information. That's in my head. That's based on every experience I've ever had, and this, like, very unique quilt of my mental model of, like, the whole world. I just find that so

Brad: [13:25] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [13:25] like, the idea that there's objective truth to anything just, it… Mind-boggled that we could

Brad: [13:30] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [13:31] anything. And then every once in a while we agree on things for a while, and then we just decide, well, no, never mind." Like, did you learn that Pluto was a planet?

Brad: [13:40] Yep, yep

Abby Covert (she/her): [13:40] me too. It's not, uh, by the way, so it's been demoted, but, like, that's a really good example of, like, we all thought that was true for a real long time, and just with new information, eh, turns out not true. And it took the colliding of, like, other sources and other influences to get there. And so Yeah. it's like, it's all this big kaleidoscope of, like, human experience and, like, us mashing

Brad: [14:05] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [14:06] So I think that's really… adults that end their creative pursuit after school, it makes me really sad, like, when they just, like, go into the job, and everything's about the job, and they forget about that, like, higher level interest that they had in the subject that got them to go to the degree program to begin with. And I find that people that can stick in that creative practice through their working professional life just have a lot more satisfaction with their career path,

Brad: [14:33] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [14:34] and a lot more

Brad: [14:34] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [14:35] as well.

Brad: [14:36] Yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): [14:37] Yeah.

Brad: [14:37] yeah. I, I think that the ability to reinvent and, and cultivate our creativity on an ongoing, like, as a, as a practice, as, as a way of being, as a way of, like, being in the world rather than this, this y- yep, oh yeah, that was then and, and this is now. Now, fully appreciate that, you know, we all go through different seasons of life where certain things are more a priority and other things aren't. But at the same time, I think that that, that's been, like, one of the biggest drivers of putting this show together, was, like, helping people reconnect with and, and understand their own creative capacity that is more an innate quality than it is, like, any sort of, like, external, uh, I used to play music, or I used to do this, or I used to do this, and, and, and I don't anymore. And that, and it's, it… I, I sh- I share wh- what you said. It's, like, it's, v- it's thoroughly depressing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [15:35] Yeah, I, I speak from major experience. Like, I, I actually wrote about this when I first left Etsy, which was my, my last corporate job. felt like in the, like, five or six years that I had given to that organization pretty exclusively, I had really allowed the rest of me to atrophy, and everything that I had put into my own creative pursuits had been taken over by this need to balance work and family, work and family, work and family, 'cause I'd also become a mom in that timeframe. And so it was like w- a huge part of the decision to do something else was understanding that I couldn't balance all three of those things, right? I had to One of them had to lose, and

Brad: [16:13] had to give. Yeah, yeah. When- something had to give.

Abby Covert (she/her): [16:16] Yeah, there's no way I was consciously gonna throw away my creative practice. Like, that was the only thing that's made me happy for my whole life is being a creative person, so that one's not gonna go, and I'm sure as shit not throwing away being a mom. Crazy. So bye bye, corporate. Like, that's… It really does come down to

Brad: [16:31] Yes, I understand.

Abby Covert (she/her): [16:32] Like, and this many years removed, I can see it that clearly, but I can assure you that when it was in the moment, it did not feel that way. It felt very

Brad: [16:38] Yeah … Abby Covert (she/her): very uncertain, and very like, "Oh, my fricking am I really doing this?" Um, yeah, and now I'm like, "Oh, thank goodness." Yeah.

Brad: [16:47] That's, uh, that, thank you for, for sharing that, 'cause I think a lot of people need to hear that it is, it is, there, it, it, again, it kinda comes back to this, this, this just weird, oh, these other people have it figured out.

Abby Covert (she/her): [17:01] No.

Brad: [17:01] other people who are, who are out there doing kind of what appears to be really cool and valuable and fulfilling things. It's like, wow, wow, they, they must have just been on that path. And it's like, yeah, no, this, this shit's hard, and

Abby Covert (she/her): [17:15] Maybe we should

Brad: [17:16] it's only through hindsight.

Abby Covert (she/her): [17:17] like, all the things we haven't figured out. We could do that, like, a whole podcast on the things we haven't figured out just in, like, in the last, like, month of life, honestly.

Brad: [17:26] Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, we, we, we, we would absolutely do it. One of the things I ma- we could go there. Uh, one thing before we get, like, you're talking about this seam or this transition, and, and kind of- It sounds like a real reclaiming of your creativity and your creative self. What if, like, were there specific, uh, practices or specific things that helped you kind of recultivate it? Or was it literally just like, "I, I just needed to, I just needed to, to get that 40 hours back," or 60 hours or however long you were working at, for, for someone else. Like, w- what, what did you find to be helpful at recultivating your creative

Abby Covert (she/her): [18:11] Yeah.

Brad: [18:11] self?

Abby Covert (she/her): [18:12] I would say, I mean, the space definitely helped obviously, like the release of pressure. Um, although I'll be honest with you, and I think anybody that's left a, a corporate existence, um, to not go to another one will understand this, um, the time is slow to come back. Like, you don't actually believe that you have that time for a lot longer than you think you do. And it's, it's sort of like a weird, like, "I think I have these 40 hours, but it feels like my body's not allowed to have them, so I don't think I should plan anything with them for a while." but no, I think that there was two aspects of those early years of reclaiming. One of them was recovery work. Um, so I'm six years sober of alcohol. It's a huge part of my story.

Brad: [18:49] Congratulations. Great.

Abby Covert (she/her): [18:51] Um, and then a- another huge part of it is I've been a pretty lifetime journaler. Um, and so, like, getting back into a more active journaling practice. Like, back when I was working, I was doing a lot of just, like, jotting down, jotting down, jotting down. But, like, actually giving myself… Like, showing up at my desk every single morning to do, like, the, you know, the Artist's Way, uh, morning pages, full

Brad: [19:15] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [19:15] Mm-hmm … of like, multiple pages that you don't reread. That, I did that for quite a while. Um, and then I took a friend of mine, um, Ellen Olsen Brown, shout out, did, like, a journal prompting course, and I had kinda hit a wall with my journaling at that moment, um, and that really helped me break through. Um, there was a couple of them that was, like, really intense. like having to start every sentence with, "I don't want" For an entire page. Woo. Dude, do that, honestly. Do that

Brad: [19:46] That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [19:48] Um, yeah, and so I think that, like, journaling and, um, and time, yeah, I think time was a huge part of it. I, I started writing a new book fairly soon after I left, um, and that book became sort of like process for me. I was the most that I've been in my creative life writing that book. When I was working on Stuck, I showed up at my desk at the same exact time every single day, and I wrote to a certain word count or a certain time every single day. Um, and that was the only time that I had ever done something like that. I think it was because it was so early in my recovery that I needed something like that. Um,

Brad: [20:21] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [20:21] that, that was like- I think the metronome of that. and then getting back into working with other people, that really helped as well. Like, I started, um, an event called Make Sense Mas not so long after I left Etsy, and that was like a storytelling event where I just was recruiting people to tell stories about, like, information architecture challenges that they had faced. Um, and that kinda started, like, my brain going about like, "Wait a second, I kinda wanna hang out with these people all the time, and I live in Florida. How are we gonna make this work?" yeah, it wasn't so long after that I was like, Maybe I have a club. Maybe this is a thing. Maybe…" yeah, and all these years later, like, we have a club. It's a thing. 170 members all over the world.

Brad: [21:00] Beautiful. So that, that sounds like a, just a clear path of, you know, creativity leading to, to community as, as like almost like a pipeline of it's like once you're, once you're sort of flowing and once you're sort of moving in a direction, and then you're able to sort of like hook up with other people who are going in a similar direction or, or operating in a similar space, it just becomes like a natural, well, obviously

Abby Covert (she/her): [21:31] Yeah.

Brad: [21:31] should just…

Abby Covert (she/her): [21:32] have… I have, like, a theory about this. This is my, my late-breaking theory. Okay, so I've been thinking a lot about the club and, like, what it does for people, because it's not courses. It's not people teaching each other. It's just discussions. And I've been thinking, like, what is it that people get out of it? And I think that it's about confidence. I think that you need to build a tremendous amount of capability to get to the middle part of your career, but once you're at that middle part of your career, you ostensibly know all of the brass tacks of that capability, right? And then you're sort of like, "Well, what do I do now?" Like, "What do I… Where do I go?" And I think that's where community comes in. Like, I think that peers are how we grow the confidence to go past our capabilities, right? And that's when we start pushing

Brad: [22:18] Yep. Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [22:19] people's capabilities. That's when we start, like, making new things, inventing capabilities. and I think that that's something I'm really interested in helping inspire in other people. is just, like, this idea that confidence is actually really integral to, like, being good at what you do. I think people, know, they do all the courses. They take all the… They read all the books, and they still don't feel like they can stand up in front of a room of their peers and talk about the thing,

Brad: [22:44] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [22:44] right?

Brad: [22:45] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [22:46] if they're

Brad: [22:46] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [22:46] enough times and they watch enough people do it, and it's a safe enough space, one day they're gonna open their mouth, and what comes out is gonna be amazing, in my experience. So yeah, it's pretty cool.

Brad: [22:58] you hit on so many of, I feel like, the subterranean aspects of community and why we gravitate towards them. But I really love how you're, how you just described this, almost this kind of collective plateau that we get to on our own, but yeah, like, it, it really requires ultimately just like we were talking about earlier, it's like you, s- you see that red, you see that blue, you hear that sound. it's that connective tissue that creates this shared experience, but then also helps us all collectively elevate. Um, and I, I, w- as you were describing that, I was just, like, thinking about the, like the impression- uh, the impressionists and the, you know, Parisian cafe culture and stuff, where it's like here's a bunch of people who are kind of all in this moment in time and they're, they're all really gifted, uh, people. They've all kind of mastered the craft of painting up until a certain extent, and it's kind of could each of them kind of gone on to, to create and, and push the boundaries and, and push things further on their own? Maybe. But because they're getting together and swapping the idea, you know, Bauhaus, you know. Like, e- e- look at, look at any sort of cluster of, you know, Bell Labs, like, like whatever. It's like it's, it's really, it's like, yep, cool. You get to this place where you're, like, competent in the mechanics, you're competent in, in the general skill set, but you kind of, a- any, any one individual is not gonna be able to just, like, power through on their own, and it's really, like, whenever you, you hook up with other people, you're able to transcend together.

Abby Covert (she/her): [24:47] Yeah, like ask any creator on the internet in their specialty what their moment was. I can tell you mine. I know exactly the moment that I was like, not just like observing that there was community, but I was like invited into the community. And it was like in my late 20s by Hinton at a random cocktail party. He and I talk about it at least every five years But like, "Man, really glad that happened. Been so weird if that didn't happen." You know? Like, what would've been, you know? 'Cause I was at, I was at that exact place. I was six or seven years into being an information architect professionally. I was running a team of information architects, like mostly contractors that I was mismanaging, but I'm sorry, guys. Um, but yeah, it was like looking back on that time, I didn't know what to do with all that. All I knew was to keep getting higher paid jobs moving

Brad: [25:36] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [25:37] ladder.

Brad: [25:37] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [25:38] to be honest with

Brad: [25:38] Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): [25:39] I wasn't even aware that there was a non-management ladder until I entered the community. And then people were like, "Oh, do, do, do, do, do, do, don't go… Oh, wow. No, no, no, no, no, we gotta back away from the manager ladder. Back away. You are not manager person. You're definitely IC person." Um, and I wouldn't have known that. I wouldn't have known that I was a specialist. You know? That was something that was

Brad: [25:59] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [26:00] driven out of me by capitalism. It was like, "Oh, no, you're gonna be a UX generalist. That's, that's what you're doing. That's what we're doing. That's what the direction is." Until you get into the right group of peers, and you're like, "Wait a second. That's, not what I want, and that's not what I'm made for, and maybe we do something different." And ultimately, that's what I did. Yeah.

Brad: [26:17] amazing. you're doing a great job at, I think, articulating these differences between… There are structures that exist, right? Whether that's a corporation or whether that's just whatever other sort of societal systems that we swim in. And there's a- all of us, in many respects, are going through those motions and living within these systems. And it takes something to kind of provide a, a different perspective on that. And that something, it's having that, that thing that kind of just shocks you out of just the motions of, of whatever systems that we're dropped into, that allows us to, to, to ultimately come back to ourselves. And, and, and that's something that's, that's very uniquely, I think, like, human. We rely on humans to give us those sanity checks and those extra perspectives, and that, that, that It's through that conversation and stuff that, that I think is really, like, fascinating, that we're able to sort of go, like, "Oh." Yeah, 'cause I'm sure that, that, that community wasn't just like, "I don't know you at all, but don't do that." Like, I'm sure that they're, they're like, they're, they're… They were, like, nice about it. Or were they nice about it? Or were they like… Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): [27:43] later they're like, "Hey, by the way,

Brad: [27:45] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [27:45] the the

Brad: [27:46] Yeah. Yeah. So it didn't, it didn't happen at the, at the cocktail party. Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [27:50] No. At the cocktail party he was like, "You're awesome. You should be part of this Information Architecture Institute thing. Why aren't you a part of this thing? Here's the website. Go home and sign up." And I'm like, "Okay, I will do that." And I was the president of that organization like five years later.

Brad: [28:07] That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [28:07] stuff

Brad: [28:08] Amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [28:08] matters a lot. And like models matter too. Like, role models matter a lot. And I think, like,

Brad: [28:12] Hmm.

Abby Covert (she/her): [28:13] is also where you see role models outside of your, your job. Like, when we see role models in our job, it's hard because they're also… They have all this, like, extra baggage of, like, they work at the same

Brad: [28:23] Yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): [28:23] as us, and maybe we have

Brad: [28:25] yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [28:26] But when you have m- mentors and people to look up to in a community sense, I feel like it creates all of this opportunity where, like… I remember the reason I walked up to Andrew Hinton at that cocktail party was because he had given the closing keynote, he was funny. He was funny. Like, he was, he was really, like, delightful and funny and casual, but also, like, wicked smart and just really, like, on point, and so, like, on message. Like, you could tell what he went there to say, and he said it. But he didn't make anybody feel like he was above them, and he didn't make anybody feel like he was like, "Oh, pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-paul. like, let me, let me give

Brad: [29:01] Yeah. Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [29:02] it wasn't what I thought of when I thought of lecture. Um, and I didn't know that that was a thing. Like, I'm a theater kid. When I saw that that was a thing, I was just like, "Oh, sign me up. Where's the stage? Show me to the stage." I love this. This is so amazing. Um, and Yeah.

Brad: [29:19] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [29:20] think all the time about, like, he didn't have to be the first one. I'm sure somebody else would've been that one, but, but he was

Brad: [29:25] Yeah. sure.

Abby Covert (she/her): [29:26] was, yeah, that was there.

Brad: [29:29] a- and you're touching on something that, that I think is also a pretty central theme of this show, which is around attitude and demeanor and, and this, this sense of, of, we'll say possibility and optimism and just, uh, almost kind of diffusing or disarming a lot of the, uh, yeah, standing on ceremony or, you know, this is right and this is wrong. Like, I, I personally, like, really love, you know, humor and sort of stuff like that. I, I play those cards a lot 'cause that's just kind of innately who I am. But, like, I've seen many different versions of it that just make people comfortable and invite people in and demystify or, yeah, get, get, like, de-pedestalize, uh, uh, all of the things and just put us all on, on level ground so that we can do fun and good things together.

Abby Covert (she/her): [30:24] Yeah. I mean, I think bringing fun back into work is… I mean, I don't know if it was ever there, so maybe it's not bringing it back into work, but, like, bringing fun into work, I think, is not the worst thing that we could do. Um, like, on the best projects that I've been on, they're the ones that have inside jokes. They're the ones that have memes. They're the ones that have those hilarious moments where everybody ends up punchy on the call. And, like, that doesn't happen just 'cause we all decided. Like, it happens because the environment allows it. And yeah,

Brad: [30:54] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [30:55] not a lot of environments allow it. A lot of people have to be kinda, like, armored up- when they're in

Brad: [31:00] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [31:00] corporate job. And when you're armored up, you can't make those authentic connections with people,

Brad: [31:04] Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm re-

Abby Covert (she/her): [31:06] know what I mean? You're the model. If the executive is the only model you're seeing, and that's the type of executive you're seeing, what you think you're turning into?

Brad: [31:13] Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Do you feel through your- Past job experiences, your current community endeavors, and everything else, like, like that, that sense of like fun or, or, or pulse. Like, I guess, have you found ways of, of cultivating that? Or are there specific things that, or, or conditions or environments that could be, is this physical? Is this a virtual get-together? That stuff, those dynamics I think also play into that. Like, oh, can you actually kinda create these more authentic connections? But also, like, are there, um, either like rituals that don't feel cheesy or forced? Or just like… Or, or how, how does it get cultivated in a way that just doesn't, yeah, like go, ugh, that isn't cringe?

Abby Covert (she/her): [32:09] Oh, man. I feel like I'm gonna give the craziest answer, 'cause why not? Um, because I think it's true. Like, honestly, this is where my brain went. I feel like you have to start inside of yourself. Like, the… I cannot tell you how different I feel going into a room that I have to have control in now versus when I was in my mid-20s, right? Like, when I was, like, a couple years in and I was still like, "Oh, God, I gotta prove myself in every meeting. I gotta be the smartest person in, in every room. I gotta, like, really be on my shit all the time." And, like, if I compare those two, one of them was having fun, and the other one is absolutely not, and she's terrified that she's gonna get found out. And so, Yeah. I feel like in my current life, all of my meetings are fun. I don't know why the fuck I would go to a meeting if it wasn't fun. I work for myself. Why would I

Brad: [32:55] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [32:56] There's no non,

Brad: [32:57] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [32:57] meetings. Um, but I think back then, there was no fun meetings because I wasn't able to have fun. Like, I'm sure th- th- there's people that I knew back then that I am still friends with, and even those people remark on how different I am now. And it has a lot to do with, like, becoming comfortable with being who I am instead of trying to pretend that I'm somebody else. Like, I don't have to go in and pretend that I'm someone who's, like, like, cutthroat and, like, go right to the point just because I've been surrounded by men my whole career that are mo- role models that are doing that. I don't have to do that. And I think when I finally accepted that part, uh, my working style really changed. And, um,

Brad: [33:39] That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [33:41] for… I think people that have meetings with me are much happier. I had a friend that I consulted with back in the day, and after a, a meeting with an executive one day, he goes, know what I like about you, Covert? You go right for the throat." And I swear to God, Brad, it was the day that I changed everything. I could not handle that that's the way somebody had described it, because I felt, coming out of that room, I felt like I was in some sort of, like, a fever dream. Like, I'm, I'm, like, going into, like, a Quentin Tarantino film, and then I'm, like, coming out into, like, a princess film. That's my real life , you know? And I'm, like, in there, and I'm like, guns blazing. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. It's like, what the heck is… Who is that? But

Brad: [34:18] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [34:18] point, I didn't have the ability to even go, as I call it now, like, go to the balcony. Like, I didn't have the ability to have an external view of myself. I was so of myself freaking the fuck out that I was gonna get found out, in trouble, whatever, it didn't… You couldn't even hear what was going on, and you just leave the room and have to trust other people's impressions or, like, the wrath that you left behind. Which, spoiler alert, I did really well in corporate America doing that. Like, really well. They just kept promoting

Brad: [34:47] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [34:47] because that's what

Brad: [34:48] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [34:48] they want you to go for the throat, and that person did like that about me, 'cause he didn't have to do and he felt somebody should, you know? And now I'm a person that doesn't feel like you should.

Brad: [34:58] I, that's freaking beautiful because I think that y- and how you started it in the, "Oh, it's kind of cheesy, but it's, it's going inward," and, and what you just described is like here are all these extrinsic motivators and extrinsic forces that ultimately leave you to behave in a way that doesn't feel true to your inner self. And when you are outside of an environment that, where those conditions are no longer true, you're able to reconnect and have a much better time.

Abby Covert (she/her): [35:34] parenting honestly healed a lot of it for me. Like, there was no way that I wanted to parent my child the way that I parented my clients. No way. No way. Like,

Brad: [35:45] Why didn't you finish your Cheerios?

Abby Covert (she/her): [35:48] And it's like, why is that different? Why should that be different? Like, why should my interaction with other human beings be anything but pleasant? Why would I enter into unpleasant circumstances on purpose?

Brad: [36:01] Yeah. I think, I, that…

Abby Covert (she/her): [36:03] circumstances, I make it be pleasant, which maybe that's naive and silly or whatever, but I don't think so. I think it makes it better, Like, I had to

Brad: [36:11] No, No,

Abby Covert (she/her): [36:12] Security office recently, and that was not fun. But, like, those people looked like they were having a miserable time. a little joke at the person that I was checking in with, made them smile. Don't know if the smile was fake, but I kind of felt like we had a moment, and it was worth it for me.

Brad: [36:25] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [36:25] Like-

Brad: [36:26] Yeah. Yeah. There's, there, there are those interactions where you know- You're, you're able to see through the, the thing. 'Cause m- a, a lot of people that are in that office, nobody's there because they're, like, super jazzed about it, right? Like

Abby Covert (she/her): [36:44] for them

Brad: [36:44] is, this is a, this is a, a chore. This is, this is an inconvenience. This is not a pleasant thing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [36:51] No

Brad: [36:51] you have the wherewithal to, to understand that dynamic and, and get out of your own, uh, ego or your own experience and are able to, as a result, have a genuine connection with

Abby Covert (she/her): [37:07] to

Brad: [37:08] who needs it.

Abby Covert (she/her): [37:09] I do have a bad habit of doing this thing where I try to, uh, crack a tough nut. like somebody who, like, never is friendly, and I try to, like, friendly them, and it never fucking works. That never works ever, ever, ever. And so I feel like, most of the time I'm, I'm trying to have a genuine interaction with people, but also I would say that my codependence comes out in those interactions sometimes and I'm just being a fucking people pleaser. I'm just like, "This is so awkward, I have to release the tension for myself." And I think that probably is ego, you know? That's about my comfort, not about theirs. So,

Brad: [37:42] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [37:43] Who knows?

Brad: [37:44] I'm, guilty. Guilty as charged as well. Sometimes whenever it's, it's like, "Oh, okay, this is, this is gonna be… You're gonna make this difficult. All right. Well, here we go."

Abby Covert (she/her): [37:54] I'm gonna crack

Brad: [37:54] And I… Yeah. I'm gonna try. Uh, but and, and you are right that it's like some of it is just, like, my own discomfort. And sometimes, yeah, I've, I've learned to, to back off and just be like, "All right, like,

Abby Covert (she/her): [38:06] Just

Brad: [38:07] you're committed to it.

Abby Covert (she/her): [38:08] That's

Brad: [38:08] I get it.

Abby Covert (she/her): [38:09] They're

Brad: [38:10] Yep, that's okay."

Abby Covert (she/her): [38:11] Sometimes they're committed to the bit just like you're committed to the bit, you know what I mean? you're just

Brad: [38:15] What's fun, though, I'm thinking of a specific garage door repair guy, who had this, and it took a couple sessions. It took a couple rounds, 'cause he had to first come out

Abby Covert (she/her): [38:28] Yeah

Brad: [38:28] diagnose. I think that he did some work, frankly. Like, 'cause it was, like, between, like, the first and the second visit, he kinda came back through, and he was, like, notably… Like, he started off in the same level of kinda cold and clinical and just kinda, Yeah. " I don't wanna be here either" kinda thing. And as time went on, it was like you, you kinda saw. So, like, it, it took a little bit. And, and I, I think that that's important because, like, in those interactions with like, at, like, the Social Security office or, like, these things that you're like, "I don't know"- If I made, like, a material dent in that stuff. Like, a lot of that stuff, there's, there's often, like, a, a lag or a drift or something that both good and bad experiences have on us. Like, it's, it's really through the passage of time that, that we start to actually feel the effects of, of some things. Like, like you were saying that, like, earlier about, like, your tran- your transition job versus out on your own, that it's like there's, there's a real, like, inertia and there's some subtle, like, subterranean stuff that doesn't always, like It's not super obvious or clear what shifted, but sometimes it is. It's just, like, that, that weird, like, rare friendly interaction or something that, like, can really set a course in a different way, and you're not necessarily gonna be around to see the result of that in that person.

Abby Covert (she/her): [39:57] You don't know what's gonna h- I am thinking back to the information part of our conversation. I'm thinking like, "Oh my gosh, the person at the Social Security Administration could have, like, a checklist next to them, and they make a check every time somebody says that cheesy ass joke to try to make their day." And they could… As soon as I walk away, they could have rolled their eyes at the person. next to them and been like,

Brad: [40:17] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [40:17] 26 today." And I have not thought about it until this moment, Brad. Not once.

Brad: [40:24] more likely, I think that, that people are, are craving a pulse. They're craving that, uh, you know, A for effort if for anything else, you know? I thi- I think that, that, that's all I'm after really at the end of the day, is it's just like just, just give me something. Just give me, like, something that, like, tells me you're, you're alive as well. And even if it's just, like, a small little thing and you're not gonna crack a smile, that's fine. You know what really helped for me, though? I had an English bulldog named Ziggy, and the most hardened, straitlaced just kind of miserable dude walking down the street, like, Ziggy could just, like, soften any person up. It was like he just was, like, so dopey, so goofy. He w- he was, like, my secret weapon to just, like, automatically just see more smiles. It was, it was pretty amazing. So, like, we, we … There would be these times where you're just like, "Oh, this is, like, these dudes are hard and they are not happy," and it was just like doesn't matter. Yeah, it's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [41:30] I love that. The worst, um, the worst offense that I ever saw of a customer service person not crack a smile at a great joke was on, uh, two days before I married my husband, we had to go and get our marriage license, and we were eloping in, in New York, so it's fairly easy. You just, like, walk up to a counter and you pay and you get a license, and then two days later you show up and you get married. So as we're stepping up to the counter, he pushes his credit card across the thing and goes, "One wife, please." And the guy just doesn't smile at all. Like, he's nothing. Just nothing. And it so awkward. We were just like, Nothing?" So that's one we still talk about to this day.

Brad: [42:08] Mean- and meanwhile you're like, "This is the man of my dreams. This is who I am marrying."

Abby Covert (she/her): [42:13] it is his first dad joke. It is pre-dad by many years, but it is his first official dad joke, for sure.

Brad: [42:20] Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. What, yeah, I mean, it's like, no doubt, right? That dude has to just be subjected to some of the worst stuff in the world, so it's like,

Abby Covert (she/her): [42:31] He's heard that

Brad: [42:31] it's like… but it's, it's less about the joke and it's more about just, like, the, it's, like, probably just some form of coping mechanism that just is like, "You're-- I'm in survival mode. I'm just, like, trying to, like, get through the day." And it's like, on one hand it's like, man, I get it

Abby Covert (she/her): [42:48] Yeah,

Brad: [42:48] they've gotta be a tough gig. But also, also, do you really, do do, like,

Abby Covert (she/her): [42:55] People are getting

Brad: [42:55] do you really? Yeah. It's like this is one of the good ones. This is one of the good, like…

Abby Covert (she/her): [43:03] Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. No, I, I can totally see why he would be all armored up, but also, man, for my, for my comfort of that story, it would've been better if he would've laughed, but… Actually, I think it's better that he didn't. It… Honestly, if he would've laughed, we probably wouldn't even remember the story.

Brad: [43:18] yep, yep. yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [43:19] it because it was, like, transgressive that he didn't laugh.

Brad: [43:23] yeah, yeah. You're like, "Okay, all right. Gotcha, buddy."

Abby Covert (she/her): [43:26] Yeah.

Brad: [43:27] Uh, so, so Abby, what, what don't you know? What don't you know?

Abby Covert (she/her): [43:31] what don't I know? Oh, I've got a really good one. Um, I don't know how to teach my seven-year-old being safe on the internet. I have, um, started looking into this problem because it is a real problem. We, we are taking on internet safety as a second-grade subject. But, um, what I've come across is that there's a lot of baseline humanity concepts that you have to teach in order for any of it to make sense at all So for example, um, and maybe this is 'cause my son is naive, but, uh, at seven he has never been around an unsafe person, and he doesn't understand the concept of an adult malicious towards a child. And so very early in talking about this internet safety thing, it occurred to me that, like, I am going to have to teach him about the world in order to teach him about the internet.

Brad: [44:26] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [44:27] and so yeah, I'm like, we haven't covered, uh… Like, we've covered biology and reproduction, but we haven't covered what he calls romance. and I'm not ready for a seven-year-old to have that conversation, but there's parts of that conversation that are, like, required information for this internet safety stuff to make sense. And so yeah, like, he keeps saying the same sentence to me over and over again. This is the thing I don't know, is, "When you say they could hurt me, what do you mean?" So Please don't answer me. I'm sure that you don't have an answer for this. know? I feel like I should let you

Brad: [44:59] No, I mean, we're, we're, No, we're g- we're, we're, we're in the same boat. right, so our daughter's eight and, and same deal, and we've… We talk a fair amount, I think, about, w- we'll say vaguely, like, like what you're saying. And I, I think that there is, like, an age appropriateness, like, to a, to a lot of this stuff, where it's, where it is like, yeah, you don't necessarily need to, like, get, like, way in the fray there. But I do th- like, some of her neighbors and friends have turned the corner where they're able to play, uh, online games with, like, some, uh, you know, like on, like, a server where there's, like, a chat. And, like, for us, that isn't allowed, right? Like, we can play and she has, like, her buds over and, and that's… I, I grew up playing huddled around a, a small TV set, uh, playing video games with my friends, so I'm cool, uh, with screen time provided it's, like, like, a social thing. And I'm cool even if it's like, ah, yes, like, we kinda have some, some YouTube activity that's, like, there that is, you know, sanctioned and there's, like, a couple channels that she's gravitating towards and we're, like, checking it out and monitoring it. But, but she knows.

Abby Covert (she/her): [46:20] you can do. That's the thing I feel like we should

Brad: [46:22] Y- yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [46:23] is nothing you can do to monitor YouTube for your child. You can't block a channel.

Brad: [46:27] Nope.

Abby Covert (she/her): [46:27] can't, you can't keep them from going to a channel. There is nothing that you can do in the YouTube world to control that. I assume that there are third-party things that you might be able to do, but I haven't

Brad: [46:37] it's, abysmal.

Abby Covert (she/her): [46:38] Yeah,

Brad: [46:38] it's abysmal. I, I was, I was pretty shocked.

Abby Covert (she/her): [46:43] That's, it's gone from our

Brad: [46:44] yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [46:45] we're doing internet safety. I've actually… 'Cause he's very upset about it, and he feels as if he's missing out on the world because he's not on YouTube, and so basically the deal that we made is if he can do a 12-week internet safety course with me, then he can have, uh, monitored, um, access back to YouTube. And yeah, we'll see how that goes.

Brad: [47:02] Modern

Abby Covert (she/her): [47:03] Everything is

Brad: [47:04] and gentlemen. That's

Abby Covert (she/her): [47:06] course. like, "You wanna do that? We gotta do a 12-week course on that."

Brad: [47:10] But, but, but it is, it is interesting where it's just like, you know, just even the one thing that, that my daughter does seem to understand is it's just like, okay, like there's like language as like a thing where she's like, "Oh, this person like said this." You know, she'll come home from school and she'll, she'll be like, "Guess who said this word?" And, and that's like kind of front page news. So she seems to get it from that lens at least, but not, not through like anything more, more harmful. But like, but at the same time she's like, "Oh, I understand why I'm not allowed to just fire up, you know, join a game on a server where there's chat and, 'cause people could be like saying bad things." And I'm like, "Okay." Like that's, that's fine for now I suppose, But

Abby Covert (she/her): [47:56] The, I ho- honestly, I was very impressed that, um, Google has a curriculum for kids. It's for, um, second through, second through ninth, I think, and it's called Be Internet Awesome. Um, and it's a classroom curriculum, so it's, it's made for a teacher to walk through with a group of kids. So I've worked on, um, a version of it that's, like, just for, like, a parent and child to, to go through. So I'm happy to send it to you, Brad, if you'd like to go through it with your

Brad: [48:21] No, that's great. That's great. That's great. Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [48:24] some interesting things in there, like sorting activities of, like, different types of personal information and, like, if you are in a chat, like, what i- is it okay to say what you had for dinner last night? Yes. Is it okay to say the neighborhood that you live in? And so it's,

Brad: [48:38] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [48:39] things like that, that they really do need to be taught, unfortunately.

Brad: [48:42] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we p- we pick at that with, with a bunch of the kids. We got some… We got a good smattering of school-age kids in our little neighborhood and, you know, from high school, middle school, elementary school, and we pick at that stuff. We're like, you know, "Tell, tell me about, tell me about AI," or, "Tell me about like, um,

Abby Covert (she/her): [49:05] Oh, AI. Yeah.

Brad: [49:06] soc- you know, or, or TikTok," or, "Tell me about this." And like, w- "What does your school do or teach around this?" And they're just, "Eh." And it's, and it's always just like very, very, very depressing. Now I'm sure that if the teachers and instructors in the school apparatus was hearing them say that, they would probably be like, "Oh, brother," because we do do more than that. But at the sa- but at the same time, hearing these kids say that, you're just like, oh boy, we are… These kids are not getting the education that is kinda required for this day and age.

Abby Covert (she/her): [49:44] when I see how slow, like, our industries are to react in terms of education to the technology, I completely understand why public education would not be up to date on technology trends. Like, they are literally just getting laptops in schools right now. It's like, we're kind of done with that now. We don't really want laptops in schools. We've actually done all the research to figure out that that was a really bad idea. Whoopsie. And it took so long, now it's what we're doing.

Brad: [50:10] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [50:11] yeah, the s-

Brad: [50:11] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [50:12] pace

Brad: [50:12] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [50:13] education is, yeah, slower than technology. I think in the pace

Brad: [50:17] That's for sure.

Abby Covert (she/her): [50:18] is definitely the case. So

Brad: [50:20] it's so tricky. And, and yeah, like humans, adults, we see it at an organizational level, right? You get to see, like, kind of the, the adoption curve and, and just awareness versus, you know, " Oh yeah, we're dipping our toes into this thing or that thing or whatever," versus, "Ah, yes, we have, like, a mature practice or, or we're," whatever. So it's like we- we've seen it over the arcs of our careers just kind of like how long it takes things to go from this exists to this is, like, fully internalized, and it's, it's a freaking journey. Holy moly. And it's not an even one. it's not a 12-week program.

Abby Covert (she/her): [50:58] No, it's not a well-read program, for sure. But AI is an interesting example of that because, like, I feel like I fell into the laggard category for AI un- n- like, unknowingly. I wasn't paying attention enough to, like, its impact on our industry while I was, you know, not in our industry. Um, and yeah, I feel like I kinda, like, woke up and, oh my gosh, all of a sudden we're at, like, peak adoption, and I have no idea how that happened. Um, but if I look back through the discourse, it's like, God, people that have been working on AI probably think, "Well, finally we're getting somewhere with this thing," 'cause they've been trying for a long time. So Yeah. it's interesting. Everybody's, like, on their own timeline of their field, and then their life is a slightly different one. Like, there's a whole aspect of, like, if you plant a tree, you're not actually gonna enjoy the shade of it, but It will provide shade, so, like, is, that enough? And I think, like, in discourse, a lot of it comes down to that. Like, the thing that you bring up might take your entire life to take hold, then one day it could be the thing that you're remembered for. It could be the thing that provides

Brad: [52:01] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [52:01] So- Yeah.

Brad: [52:02] It is, it is really to see that. I think about that all the time in this day and age just because there's so much now. there's been so many, like post-humous artists and cr- musicians or painters or, or just other people that I've recently been surprised by that I was like, "Oh, wow, they didn't They weren't around. I didn't know. So Rachel Carson is, is from Pittsburgh and, you know, we got the Rachel Carson Bridge and the Rachel Carson, uh, Trail and, and all of this stuff. I didn't know that, she wasn't around for the success of Silent Spring. That, so she was just, like, laboring for years and years and years, and I, I didn't know until very, very recently that I'm like, "Whoa, okay." And, and yes, b- whether that's, uh, you know, Otis Redding and certainly, like, Van Gogh and other people, it's like, yeah, like that impact a, a lifetime of work or whatever. It's like Dock of the Bay, I didn't realize that, uh, with Otis Redding, it, he recorded that, died. Steve Cropper and the rest of the, the backing band at Stax Records, like, they had to, like, go in afterwards and record that song and then release it in a, in a hurry. there's a great, uh, documentary about Stax Record in, in, in, in Memphis, and he was just like, "I hate that song." Like, I… It, it was like, "It was the worst experience of my life," because it's like, "Here's my,

Abby Covert (she/her): [53:30] But

Brad: [53:30] but, but he… It's like, "My friend died," and then they're like, "Shit, we gotta release a record you, we need you to go play on this so that we can release it and kinda, like, uh, not quite cash in on, on this tragedy, but at the same time, kind of." And, uh, and boy, oh boy. But, but I think about, like, all of, like, this stuff now where it's just like so much is being born. Like, so much, uh, uh, we are able to create. Uh, it's a lot. The bar is so much lower that it's just like how in the absolute world are just even our future selves, but certainly future generations, gonna sift through all of this stuff and, like, who, who's been doing, like, really, like, good work in their era that just, like, they got it right. They're not gonna be around to, to, sit under the tree like you said and, and get that shade. But, like, they were there humming along, getting all the things right, and, um, weren't around to, to reap the rewards.

Abby Covert (she/her): [54:35] Well, in, in the world of the internet, I feel like everything is sliding off of this invisible cliff too. Like- people change blogging platforms or just stop paying their URL, uh, domain fee, and the next thing you know, like, everything that they've ever written on the, on the internet is gone. Like, there was a, there was a publication called The Pastry Box, um, maybe

Brad: [54:55] Oh, I loved the Pastry Box.

Abby Covert (she/her): [54:57] I I

Brad: [54:57] I sure did. I contributed to it, yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [55:00] and I'm like, man, that was some of the best writing that I did in that season of my life, and like, it's nowhere. I don't even think I have a copy of it anymore, and it's so weird to think about, but like, that's so common. Like, when I was working at the, the Information Architecture Institute, we did this project that was, uh… I called it a barn raising, and it was like our library, which was just a list of links, was 60% deprecated, just like all the links were dead. And so, we assigned volunteers to, like, go and find the new links. Well, 10 years later, I go into that spreadsheet, and all the links are dead again. Like, all of that work is just gone, and it's unbelievable. Like, you know, God bless the WayBack Machine, but it's not enough. Like, that's not enough

Brad: [55:41] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [55:41] save this discourse that is falling off of a cliff. Yeah.

Brad: [55:45] Yeah. There's, there's a lot there, and as somebody who, yeah, it's like my entire existence and I, I owe everything to the fact that I have this blog and have been at it for as long as I have. But even me, I, I've been, uh, it's, it's been a little bit because, like you said, like changing blogging plat- platforms and stuff like that, like that's like where I'm at right now, and so I'm in this like very like weird thing. But it's so eager to, to be able to have the head space to be able to like address that because I have so much that I want to… Like, the fire hose is kinked right now, and in order to unkink it, I need to, to do some tech things in order to make that happen. But like, back to community and back to, just like visibility and sharing and like doing all of like that stuff, it's really in the, the lived memory of everybody, where it's like the… A spreadsheet is gonna die, right? Because it's like behind like closed doors. And, and so there's really just like this, this… I, I have this instinct, and again, my, my tech infrastructure is currently kinked, but I'm so excited to break through there because I'm like, my theory at least, I'll try it out on you and you tell me if it, I'm right or wrong, is like you, you collectively keep the ball in the air, right? You collectively… It's, it's almost like, like how trademark works. It's like trademark works and is enforced by usage. If you like trademark a thing like legally, but you're like not out in the world actually like using it, well then like somebody else can kinda c- come in and they could actually say like, "Look, like this thing is, is dead or stale." So it's really through like the kind of communal effort that, that we kinda keep these things alive. And that's why This moment in time is such a weird double-edged sword where you kinda have, AI coming in and simultaneously, like, polluting a bunch of things, but also providing a lot of people the superpowers and the ability to finally get their personal site, uh, up and out into the world, and to start writing and to share the thoughts that are in their heads, because that was, that was prohibitive, especially the way that the, the field has gone and where it's like, "Oh, you need to, like, learn React, and you need to, like, get, you know, a master's degree level education just to get your website off the ground." And it's like, it- in many respects we're, we're kinda back to li- literally the meeting I was on just before. We were just like, in so many respects we're just back to, "Here's a couple files, here's a folder with some images in 'em," and that's all you need to make a website now. And, and, and that's always been true, but, like, some weird thing happened where it just got way more complex than it needed to be. And so we're now in a place where the opportunity is there, and that's not to say it's a given, and that's why I think it takes, like, our collective efforts to just, like, kinda keep this stuff going and to, to make it easy and to make it fun and to make it communal, to, to be linking to one another again and, having these kinds of conversations. So, so it's, it's how do we take this, which feels very natural, right? Like, like conversation and, and just kinda translate that back into the, the digital world where whenever we got started putting things on the internet, it was more prohibitive, right? It… You did require… It, it required some know-how. It required some, some technical chops. And we're now at a place where it's like, if you got something to say, it's actually never been as, as easy to, to say it and do it on your terms. I think that that's really, like, the… That's the crux of, like, the indie web movement and all that stuff. But, like, whenever you, like, look at that stuff, at least historically, it's been like, it, it still feels kind of overwhelming to people. There's like, "Oh, there's some, some tech." It gets into, like, the techy weeds, I think, a little bit more than most people would like.

Abby Covert (she/her): [59:52] Yeah, Dreamweaver and AI are not the same. Like, Dreamweaver could not take down your computer, you know? Like, AI can- can screw that up. Like, you can really do some damage.

Brad: [1:00:03] Mm-hmm.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:00:04] I speak from experience of vibe coding myself into quite a pickle. Um, but no, I f- I feel like that's something… I've, I've been really interested in this because, like, I'm really wondering if it is a new group of people or if it is the same persona of people that is using these AI tools to, quote, "get their, their message out." Because I don't know, it feels very similar to me in terms of the people and the voices and the executions. Like, I'm seeing a lot more, democratization of the technology layer, but I don't know that it's really spreading outside of the technology industry. Like, for example, I don't know if my neighbor down the street who's never worked in tech is able to vibe code something. I don't think so.

Brad: [1:00:47] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:00:47] I think that that, that

Brad: [1:00:49] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:00:49] like, even though they can access ChatGPT, even though they could, like, know, ask for what they want, it's going to give them something that they are not going to know what to do with. And then, like, for, for somebody like me who's not a coder, I can work with ChatGPT or a- an AI get all that onto

Brad: [1:01:07] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:01:08] the

Brad: [1:01:08] Yeah. you're, you're adjacent. Yeah, you're adjacent. You understand.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:01:12] Yeah, But, like, I

Brad: [1:01:13] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:01:14] like, a very young print designer in my first IA job, I, I was right out of print school, and this engineer sat me down and taught me about, like, the front end and the back end and the middle tier. And it was like, oh. oh. You know? And, like, I haven't given that lesson to my neighbor down the street who doesn't work in tech, you know? So it's like, I, I feel like it has the potential, but it still is a technical adventure. So I, I think that, like,

Brad: [1:01:38] Yep. Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:01:39] it's not fully democratized, nor should it be at this point because it's actually a

Brad: [1:01:43] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:01:44] But, you know, we can talk about that

Brad: [1:01:45] I do think, like, the word facilitate has been something that's been very front of mind for me lately, and what you're describing, your neighbor down the street, is, is kinda what I've been working on. Um, I've been calling it kinda mouth coding, uh, because it's-- we're literally coding with our mouths.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:02:06] word. That's so

Brad: [1:02:08] yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:02:08] Mouth

Brad: [1:02:09] But my, my, my… So my wife works at a counseling practice, and the owner of the practice, not a technical person, but as the owner of a small business, she's got her Wix website, and she's, you know, she's, she, knows it leaves a lot to be desired. And we ha- we were able to have a conversation together where I was able to sort of like facilitate the creation of the website, right? Like I'm kinda coming in with like a little bit more of like the, the technical know-how. But where she is able to articulate her vision, her mission, uh, how she serves the community, her core values, all of that stuff, and we started there. And it was so great because we weren't-- we were ostensibly talking about the website, but we didn't get into the website at all until like 45 minutes into the conversation. And then we were able to go- So let's turn all of that, what you just told me, into the website. And sure enough, th- there's a website that is like perfectly articulating the stuff. So I'm starting to do this more with, like, uh, uh, trying to get into doing this with, like, nonprofits and stuff. So I have, like, a few folks, uh, lined up, which I'm super excited about because these are, these are people who are doing amazing work, but they're the ones that have been either intimidated by technology or preyed upon or, you know, there's a whole industry of,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:03:35] Oh yeah

Brad: [1:03:36] know, we're going to… Yeah. So, so it's like, how do you, like, in your own words, you know, like, describe what it is you do, describe your values, describe where it is you're, what, what you're wrestling with, what audiences you're serving, all of that stuff. Just, like, just, just get it all out. And what I think is so, like, genuinely exciting for me in this moment is, is that those people who are very, very skilled, very gifted, and very, you know, doing these very noble things but don't have the technical firepower or enough bankroll to have professional designers and developers on hand, well, guess what? Now we professional designers and developers can help, like, facilitate the creation of this stuff, right? Like, like, so, so it's, it's kind of what, at least on paper, the gig has always been as a designer developer is, like, oh, yeah, we're gonna come in, we're gonna, like, do this research and we're gonna do all this stuff, and it's like… But now we just get to, like, do it kind of like, real time and live and react to something and, like, get the, the person who's in charge of donations and the other person that's in charge of, like, the operations and this, these people that are, like, bring them all in. Like, like, it's a party. Like, let's, like, get everybody in here. Everybody say your wish list. Everybody say what you care about. Everyone say, like, what you're scared about or, or the things that you don't wanna have happen, and let's just, like, bang this out and, and get something, like synthesize it all and put it into an actual container right now, right now, like, like, on this call. And, and, like, the people that I've done this with, they're like, "Holy shit."

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:05:23] it's Like, magic.

Brad: [1:05:23] Like, holy shit, holy shit. It, it really is. it, it doesn't feel like the whole make me a website for a nonprofit. it's emerged from this very, like, organic conversation. And I'm like, this feels like a very healthy design process. This feels like a very healthy development process. It's not to say that it isn't rigorous, but we're not, like, allowing the spreadsheets and the personas and the wire frames and the, and the specific languages to, to ultimately, like, get in the way and, and add friction to this process of just kinda going, "We're here to make a website together. Let's, let's get to it." It's, it, it just feels more direct and, and I'm, I'm

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:06:06] I,

Brad: [1:06:06] frankly, I'm here, I'm here for it.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:06:08] I'm, I'm, so… I'm fascinated to hear, like, how this progresses because, like, while you were talking through the example, I was simultaneously like, "Yes, that would be excellent in the context where you're working with kind people that are doing things all in the same direction." Also, if you were talking about a corporate environment right now with all sorts of, like, ego and power play, and you did exactly what you just said, you just created a nightmare. Like, I got an email from somebody a couple weeks ago, and they described that a designer and a developer had been locked in a room with a CTO for two days vibe coding, and it was basically like a hostage situation that this person was witnessing. And so, like, that's, that's where I, go with it Brad. It's like, I,

Brad: [1:06:51] Yes. Yeah. Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:06:52] all comes back to, like, if we think about information architecture in, in its earliest days of the web, the thought was that, like, the more thinking and pre-planning that you put into what you're creating, the more future-proofed it is, right? And the idea of, like, being able to do that all in real time live, like, I, I just wanna know, like, where it breaks. Like, how big is the organization in which that no longer works? Like, is it, is it, like, a one apple spoils the cart? Like, is it a personality thing where, like, the wrong person in that mix is gonna mess it up? Is it a number of people? Is it a context window and, like, tokens issue? Like, I don't know, but I feel like it

Brad: [1:07:35] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:07:36] breaks at

Brad: [1:07:37] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:07:37] And so that… But that's

Brad: [1:07:38] Oh, yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:07:39] I have is, like, I feel like a lot of the, like, best practice and wisdom from, like, 15 years ago was from making midsize websites, and the problem was that we took that and tried to make really fucking big websites and web apps using that same logic, And guess what? That doesn't actually work, And so now we have, like,

Brad: [1:07:58] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:07:58] full of useless garbage products, and they all look exactly the same, and we've all decided that those are best practices. I'm like, "I assure you they are not." I assure you they are not best practices, but here we are. if I get into a room with a couple people from an organization and they're all pointed in the same direction, and they actually have knowledge of their audience, and they actually know what they want to accomplish, and they know what they're trying to say, and the only thing that's in the way is the technology part, it out. But when one of those things doesn't exist, somebody in your position is all of a sudden in a nightmare, and I think that-

Brad: [1:08:31] Yep. Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:08:33] to be, like, I guess, of practice.

Brad: [1:08:37] and it really, I think, comes back to what we were saying earlier about just, like, so much of this has to do with, like, psychological safety and just, like, the vibe of, like… and the spirit of, like, how you're sort of arriving at, at things. And a lot of these, like, conditions in these environments, uh, aren't conducive to kinda good human being collaborations. And, and so that's why I'm… Now that I'm, like, less beholden to that apparatus, uh, I'm now like, "Ooh, here's all of these, like, really, like, underserved, like, small, scrappy folks that actually have really dialed in their mission and have been operating for a long time doing a whole lot with a whole little. And what if we kinda, like, supercharge this stuff and, and get their mission out into the world a lot more?" But it, it, it does, it, it kind of, like, reframes just kind of, like, how people are organized, how people are structured, how, like, you know, what does alignment look like? Like, who needs to be involved? Yeah, is Gary's presence in this meeting gonna torpedo this whole thing because they're gonna… Gary's coming in hot. we've be- we've been in enough of these meetings with Gary where you're like, "Oh my God," like, everyone changes. Everyone changes.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:10:02] of the room changes. with some people entering it,

Brad: [1:10:04] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:10:04] Like, I feel like we can't get around that, and, like, that's… That actually is a good place to kinda, like, tie this up in a bow, is, like, I think that you and I have power in that we have a voice in this space that people look to for expertise on how to deal with really complex things. And obviously, we're coming from different specialties, but I think that we share that. Um, and so Yeah. I, feel, like, a responsibility let people know that, like, if their CTO is locking them in a room right now and asking them to vibe code through the thing, and that is a gravity shifting power dynamic, then, like, that's not what we're talking about. Don't do that. That is not a best practice. Um, and so yeah, I think,

Brad: [1:10:44] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:10:45] it can

Brad: [1:10:45] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:10:46] It can be fun to work outside of the system, but when people are looking at us from inside the system for wisdom, feel

Brad: [1:10:52] yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:10:52] yeah. like obligated to kinda like do the translation sometimes of like, "Oh, but I can't see this working in corporate. Don't even try it. Don't even try it."

Brad: [1:11:01] Boy, oh boy, that's just been such like a tried and true sort of thing. It's, it's such like a, a meme at this point or a trope where it's just like, "Yeah, this is all well and good, Brad, but it won't work here," and, and all of that stuff. And it's like, "But you don't understand." And I'm like, "Let me guess. Heavily regulated industry. Uh, let me guess, like, legacy, uh, tech stack. Let me guess, uh, distributed teams. Let me guess…" And, and it's just like, "But you don't understand, Brad, we are, you know, this bank or we are this airline or we are this whatever." And it's just like, and everyone's saying the same things, right? And like, I think that one of the, the coolest things about our ability, it, to, to kind of like puncture through a lot of like that apparatus and remind everybody as, as you said really well earlier, just like everybody's just, just human beings. We're all, we're all just showing up and, and that it's, that it's okay and that you actually can cultivate that within the walls. And, uh, and that, that's been, I think the gigs that have been the most fun for me is where we've actually had the authority to basically go, "You all are gonna sit next to each other now, and that's gonna solve half of your problems and stuff." And, and it's, like that's, that's genuinely like, like adopting or, or helping facilitate like a more humane and human, human culture.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:28] asking

Brad: [1:12:28] That,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:28] you

Brad: [1:12:29] could you ima-

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:29] the answer would be enough. That would be a huge

Brad: [1:12:31] Yes. Yes.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:33] you

Brad: [1:12:33] And

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:33] to know the answer, the world would be so much better. I

Brad: [1:12:36] That's it.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:37] always wait for somebody to reply, and if they give me the rote reply, I always go, "No, seriously, how are you?" if they go, "Good, how are you?"

Brad: [1:12:45] it is.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:46] like, "No, like, how are you? I asked. I wasn't looking for a Here we are punching in.

Brad: [1:12:53] meanwhile… Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:12:56] you. I don't want it

Brad: [1:12:58] how are you when they have a, a virtual background blurred, and you just see, like, three beings, three small children running arou- like I've, I've been on those calls where it's just like, you clearly have some stuff going on. Like, you don't need to, like, put on a brave face here. Like, you literally have three children running around in, like, the background, and it's okay if you just, like, need to, like, duck out of this. Like, what we're talking about here is not, doesn't require your, your full…

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:13:27] Yes … I had somebody dial into a, a one-on-one with me probably six months ago, and they were in their car, And I was like, " What's going on?" Like, they weren't usually in their car for this one-on-one. I'm like, "Why are you in your car?" And they were like, "Oh, I had to go so-and-so. I needed to go to the doctor, and like, and then I had to, like, grab lunch, and I didn't get home," dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I was just like, " We can reschedule the meeting. We should just reschedule the

Brad: [1:13:48] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:13:48] I don't think that you should be

Brad: [1:13:49] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:13:50] in a Zoom call in your car right now." Like, I don't even think we had an agenda. Like, this… There's no reason for this.

Brad: [1:13:57] It's all good. It is all good.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:14:00] They need to be reminded that they're people, you know? Like,

Brad: [1:14:03] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:14:03] you're a people

Brad: [1:14:04] y- you talked about modeling earlier, and I think that this is a- advice for, for anybody wherever they're at, is like, you can model that i- in other people, if you see other people flustered or, like, you're, you're on that call or you're waiting on something, or, like, you see they need… Like, it's just like, just give them that grace, give them that permission, and, like, even if it's not reciprocated, again, it's like that might be the, the-- these are the small seeds, these are the small actions that can e- ultimately end up having that, like, bigger ripple effect because it eventually does get reciprocated and it, and it can take root and stuff. So, so it's like, it's not impossible to do this, and I, like, I've always gotten really bummed when people are just like, "Oh, yeah, well, Brad," or, "Oh, you, Abby, of course, like, you guys could do this, but, like, you don't understand. Like, I'm trapped. I am a prisoner." And I'm like, "I promise you that isn't the case, unless, like, you're you're actually trapped in a room by your CTO and…" Like, you ha- you have agency. You have… Yeah. Yeah. but

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:15:13] send a

Brad: [1:15:13] all to say

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:15:14] yeah, it, it is,

Brad: [1:15:15] yes. Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:15:16] But, but to your point, like, there is, there is agency involved. I think that there's, like, this conversation is making me feel like we should absolutely talk about privilege at some point because it's like, yeah, we have been very privileged to sit above some of these problems enough to be able to see them as meta patterns. And people that haven't had the benefit of that experience, where they haven't been able to, like, dive bomb into businesses that are at really critical moments of their growth and, like, be given everything in terms of access, like, that's a very uncommon position to get. Yeah. And I think when you haven't had that, it is really easy to believe that you are unique, and I think, like, terminal uniqueness is, is definitely, like, a problem That it, it creates, um, it creates, like, mental monsters. You know? It's like you, you think that, like, there's no way that anyone could ever tame the monster, uh, 'cause I can see it and it's really big. But honestly, in my experience, if you can get them to, like, draw a picture of the monster, they immediately are less scared of it, and it's like just that knowledge of, like, get it out of your head. Because when you see that it's, it… Okay, fine, it is five content management systems that are all controlled by 10 teams, but honestly, you probably thought it was more like 17 before you drew

Brad: [1:16:30] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:16:30] and you were

Brad: [1:16:30] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:16:31] talking about it like it was a huge thing. "How could I ever even make a list?" And then you make the list and you're like, "Oh, okay. And then you can start to,

Brad: [1:16:40] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:16:40] you know, break it down. I think that that's, um… I have

Brad: [1:16:42] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:16:43] poster on my wall that my grandfather made that says A, To eat a whale, you must first cut it into very small pieces." And I look at That every day and think, "Yep. That's, that's it. You just gotta…" is no eating a whale.

Brad: [1:16:55] is beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:16:56] no eating a

Brad: [1:16:56] That is beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:16:57] Yeah.

Brad: [1:16:58] Yeah. I, I love everything you just said, and I think that, yes, you're, you're right. There's, there's the privilege, but then I think that the, the other word to put on the table is, i- is diversity, where it's like in a, in a diversity of different perspectives, just as we were s- sort of talking about earlier with, like, the shared experience, right? You have those people that are deep in the trenches, and they are carrying with them a very important perspective. And it's the coming together of all of those different perspectives that ultimately allows you to, you know, get out of some situations that otherwise individually you're gonna, you're gonna just stay in the muck. You're gonna stay in whatever situation you're, you're in. So it's, so it's that it, it does really require just these, these different perspectives, just like you, you received whenever you got pulled into that community, where it's just like, oh, Here is a different perspective

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:17:53] Yep

Brad: [1:17:54] ended up shaping your, your arc.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:17:56] Yeah. something that I, I feel the need to tell people that haven't spent time in consulting, which is that, like, when you're consulting, first of all, you don't know what's gonna happen after you leave, so there's a lot of, like, shipping ideas that happens. But also, I have never, never one time been on a consulting engagement where people that worked there didn't already know what the problem was and how to fix it. Never.

Brad: [1:18:18] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:18:18] Never

Brad: [1:18:18] Yep. Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:18:19] well, but why do you get to come in and be the person that says it and they actually listen?" And I'll tell you, the answer is very simple. The answer is that the incentive changed to the point where they needed a specialist to fix it faster than they could fix it internally, and that's always the answer. It's the answer is the incentive shifted. Like, you might have been saying that your content management system is shit for years, or you didn't have one, or whatever it is. It's not until they got acquired by that company that requires them to do X, Y, Z, that needs the content management system to be a certain way, that all of a sudden they're like, "Oh, look at that. We found the time and money. We found the time and money, and we brought in this person who's gonna tell us all about it." And everyone's like, " We've been saying this for five years, that this is the problem, this… is what we should do about it." And I, I hear from people all the time that are really annoyed by that dynamic, and I, I want them to understand that it's not because we're special unicorn people that can sell it better, or the glitz is on it, or whatever. It literally is a moment. It is a moment that is, like, striking, and if you strike too early, you're not gonna sell it. Like, in every engagement I've ever done, if I had gone in six months earlier, they would've laughed me out of the fucking room. single one.

Brad: [1:19:26] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:19:27] single one.

Brad: [1:19:27] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:19:28] when am I called? I am called when things are a fucking mess. So when I go in ahead of time when they're not that messy and I go like, "You guys are gonna have a mess. If you don't do this, you're gonna have a mess," they're like, "Whatever. Screw you."

Brad: [1:19:39] We're good. We're good.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:19:41] And then six months later, it's like, "You're not gonna believe what happened." I'm like, "Oh, is it a mess? There it is." And the employees always know. They always know.

Brad: [1:19:51] Yeah. Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:19:52] of them. They all know.

Brad: [1:19:54] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:19:55] And it's painful. I think that that is the painful part.

Brad: [1:19:57] I have always hated that dynamic because, yeah, we've, we've felt the, the, the people who are, who are living this stuff day in and day out and have been shouting themselves hoarse for years trying to, to fix things, and it's like, uh, I, I fully appreciate and understand how that could go, feel sour whenever it's like, oh, it's like finally getting addressed, which should be a happy moment. And that's, and that's where, like, w- the, our responsibility is to basically, like, connect with them so that it's like their, their, their burden, you know, we're mind-melded and it's like, "Oh, yeah, you, you totally get it, and I'm just here to, like, deliver, deliver your message effectively." And when, when people hear themselves and, and, and feel heard and feel validated and feel like they were able to speak their mind in a safe way, and then, like, hear it reflected, then it's just like, that's whenever it's like… It, it, it doesn't feel as like, "Ugh, these extra people came in and they, they did something that I've been saying for years," and instead it's more like a, we got, we got our connection time, right? Just like, just like the person at the Social Security

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:06] Exactly.

Brad: [1:21:07] office. It's like we ha- we have our time, we make the connection,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:11] Yeah.

Brad: [1:21:11] I deliver some news on your behalf, and then we, we high-five and, and do good things together, so.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:18] if you don't give those people flowers, uh, when you're in that position, you're messing up. Like, at that

Brad: [1:21:23] Got it, yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:23] got, you gotta, like… the respect of listening to the history, the respect of listening to their nightmares about what they're f- afraid of is gonna happen, all of that to me is gold. Like, it almost always is

Brad: [1:21:34] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:35] is, like, the thing that's keeping them up at night is the thing that I am very, very glad that they told me about, 'cause it is the thing that will crush

Brad: [1:21:42] It's the thing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:43] later.

Brad: [1:21:44] the thing. It it

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:45] Every

Brad: [1:21:45] is the thing. It's like,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:46] Yeah.

Brad: [1:21:47] yep,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:47] But if you

Brad: [1:21:47] And what, what-

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:48] just up in their, they're just in their, in their armor, and they're all, like, protective and have to be the

Brad: [1:21:53] Yes.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:21:54] the room. They're not gonna be like, "Actually, I've been keeping myself up at night thinking about how this could f- fail because we don't have a URL redirect strategy." I can help with that. Like, we could get that together, you know?

Brad: [1:22:07] Yeah. Yeah. And I, the, the other fascinating bit about this very sort of unique position is that y- we get to do that with, like, different people that are sometimes in conflict with one another. And I think that that's always been a really fascinating dynamic because when you make those individual connections and you're able to sort of like lay that, you know, like build that bond, hear them out, truly understand their position. Again, asking, "How are you?" And actually caring about what the answer is. And then you're able to sort of like hold this up and tell that to everyone kinda collectively And help people understand that it's like, as, as cliche as it is, it's like, man, like, y- your feelings are valid. And like a lot of e- everyone feels a certain way, and they're operating in a certain, place, in a certain system, incentivized by certain things, rewarded by certain things, punished by certain things, and that is sometimes different than the other people that are incentivized and rewarded in, in different ways and, and punished in different ways. And whenever you're able to just, like, tell all of that coherently, everybody's like, "Oh," like, "Yeah, that, that kinda makes sense that they would… I, like, I… If I was in that position, I would be…

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:23:27] Yeah.

Brad: [1:23:28] That's how I would, I would be as well." So, so it's… There's something really interesting to that, and I'm, I'm happy to take those lessons out into a different place, and specifically the world. Uh, 'cause I think that this is what plays out, you know, across political divides, across, like, all sorts of things. Different just, you know, whatever, community meetings or school board meetings or what- whatever. Is that ability to, to just, like, understand and listen and, and make those connections by kind of like following through and getting to the other side of it, you end up with, guess what? Oh, I'm scared about this. Uh, I care about about the health and safety of my family. I'm worried about them, and, uh, I just wanna take good care of them. And then at the end of the day, irrespective of what views or positions they, they hold, guess what? Everybody,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:24:33] Everybody

Brad: [1:24:33] they want their family to be safe.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:24:35] Yep, We're all people. I have a, there's a, there's a metaphor in my first book about, um, being the coffee filter, not the grounds, and this idea that, like, in the role of information architect, it's really important that we don't add any more of the grounds when we're trying to clarify things for other people. it's like you don't need to

Brad: [1:24:52] it's beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:24:53] opinion into this. Like, this is a time where you are taking other people's opinions and other people's baggage and bullshit, and you are trying to make something clear and drinkable and delicious out of it, and that does not require you to put more grit into the system, you know? So I think about that a lot of like…

Brad: [1:25:09] That's, beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah, it's like-

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:25:12] advice. Sometimes you should be the grounds, you know? like- it's only when you're an information architect that you should be the filter. But, um-

Brad: [1:25:17] Well,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:25:18] I think it's an

Brad: [1:25:18] but there's a, th- that's a, that's a to- it's, it's like knowing when to deploy certain skills, right? It's like sometimes, like, taking a backseat, like, you know, as a musician it's like, yo- oh, is it my time? Am I, am I up center stage? Am I the one sort of like shredding the solo, or am I supporting, right?

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:25:36] Yeah.

Brad: [1:25:36] and it's that,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:25:37] Affirm that.

Brad: [1:25:37] like

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:25:38] yeah.

Brad: [1:25:38] time and having your toolkit of, of things. But it's like to, to have the humility to be the, the coffee filter is, I think, a real hard-earned skill to, to develop.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:25:51] Yeah, it's, about, um, discernment, has been how I've been talking about it with my students for the last couple years. it's like we have all of these different approaches that we could take with people, and if you're not careful, you get stuck in one mode, and you're always just kinda like going at people with the same mode, and that generally doesn't work. Um, if you're in a certain environment, maybe it's incentivized that it does. But for the most part, like in your career, that will not work. You will not be able to, be the same all of the time to every single person. Instead, it's about the discernment to know when to bring out that education moment, when to be the embedded partner, when to be the, facilitator and jump up and grab the marker, and because it's all-- everybody's in their head, and, like, you gotta get it out. And like knowing kind of how to approach the problem, I think, and that's the thing that I'm the most interested in, in teaching now that I'm outside of the world of consulting. It's like I can see

Brad: [1:26:36] And…

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:26:37] in a really clear way now that I'm not trying to, get through it myself you know? And…

Brad: [1:26:42] Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:26:44] Yeah, it's, it's been interesting, so.

Brad: [1:26:46] But, a- and, and adding one, one more crucial tool to the, to the pile is the willingness to say, "I don't know," or, "I've never encountered this," or, "I'm bad at this."

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:26:57] Yes. Yes. Or like,

Brad: [1:26:59] it's just being like, "Oh, okay.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:00] Yeah, or

Brad: [1:27:01] This is new."

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:02] that at the beginning of a project, especially an ambiguous, complex project, that we actually don't know how we're going to do this yet as a collective. Like, we are in, as I like to say, the land of not knowing, and we are gonna hopefully get to the land of knowing, but it might be a rocky road between those two places. It, I'll be honest, like it

Brad: [1:27:18] Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:18] Um, but if everybody admits that they're on that journey versus

Brad: [1:27:22] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:23] ego pretending that you're already living and knowing and you're just waiting for everybody else to arrive, it's like that is a completely different posture to go with the team. So

Brad: [1:27:30] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:31] I see a lot of people fail from that, that standpoint of like pretending that they

Brad: [1:27:34] Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:35] on. You don't know what's going on. Nobody does. Nobody does.

Brad: [1:27:39] We're br- bringing it all full circle, I think. It's, it's nobody knows what's going on, but we're here and let's be human to each other and, and, you know, do good things together as a result. So,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:27:51] Exactly.

Brad: [1:27:51] that might be a good place to, to, to wrap it up. So, uh, the only other structured question on this show is, is, uh, what music do you want more people to know about?

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:28:03] Okay, so I have an answer for this, and I went back and forth on whether or not this was a decent an- answer because I feel like it's well-trodden territory. It's not like unknown. But we're talking about community, more people should listen to the Grateful Dead. full disclosure, TMI, I was conceived at a Grateful Dead concert in 1981. and so I'm very connected to the music. I was one of those like little kids at the Dead concert in the mud with the, with the hippie skirts. Um, so it's definitely like a big part of my

Brad: [1:28:30] Beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:28:31] it's like my, that music is my like, uh, nostalgia, like just straight up. Um, but I feel like there is something about like the community aspect of the Dead that is just fascinating, longstanding, and just some of the best people that I've ever met have, like, spent time following that band or have like had

Brad: [1:28:50] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:28:51] into them. So, so Yeah. I don't know. If you've never listened to the Grateful Dead, go listen to the Grateful Dead. Not their studio albums, though. Like, don't go doing that. That's not fun. Listen to something else. Yeah.

Brad: [1:29:01] uh, what live album would you, for, for the uninitiated or for somebody that's

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:29:06] Oh, I'm not a

Brad: [1:29:07] kinda wrote them off in a certain way?

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:29:08] No, I'm not a tape head. I'm not a tape head at all. I would say like, you know, go to Dick's Picks and like, you know, I trust Dick. That's what I'd do. to Dick's Picks

Brad: [1:29:17] Live at the Mars Hotel

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:29:19] Dick's Picks

Brad: [1:29:19] is my,

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:29:20] there you go.

Brad: [1:29:21] That's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dick's Picks. they exhibited something and, and just exuded something that, that ultimately cultivated this, this huge community and they, there is this, this feeling of dialed in, like they're, they're dialed into the right frequency, I think. And so there's something…

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:29:41] doing something with their… They have their own little economy of, favors and gifts and mutual aid and like… Yeah, it's just, it's just amazing. Like, you can go to a, you could go to a Dead show anywhere. and even now, like they've really, like the Furthur Festival held it up for a while, now Dead & Company has held it up a- as well. Like, we've lost a lot of the members at this, at this time, and like still, like the music lives on because of the community, and I think that that's really like amazing. Like, just the people

Brad: [1:30:08] It is.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:30:09] willing to ship of Theseus this band, you know, until, until God knows what. I think it's so cool.

Brad: [1:30:14] And it, it really is. It's a, it's, it's, this snowball that over the, like literal decades, like many decades now, it just continues to, to roll on. It's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:30:28] Yeah. Yeah,

Brad: [1:30:28] fantastic.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:30:29] for a while, and I think that that was like a, it was a very foundational part of my childhood, was like growing up

Brad: [1:30:34] I bet.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:30:34] who follow The Dead.

Brad: [1:30:35] I bet. That's awesome. That's so cool

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:30:39] Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Brad: [1:30:41] Amazing. And, uh, and last, last real question is, is, uh, where can people go to learn more about you, follow you, and check out what you're up to?

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:30:52] I am not much of a social media person, so I don't really suggest you follow me there, although I guess you could. Um, I am at abbycovert.com. Everything I've ever written is there, um, at least everything that I would want other people to read. Uh, and then thesensemakersclub.com is a, a good place to check out what I've been doing most recently. We're a membership club. We run a meeting every single weekday, um, and so that's about 300 meetings a year. Uh, we have 40 discussion leaders that are trained to? hold space, not fill space. And yeah, we're just coming up on about 170 members two years in. So yeah, come check us out.

Brad: [1:31:24] Beautiful. Beautiful. Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you, Abby. Thanks for, for being here, for the great conversation and, uh, yeah, it was great to, uh, great to meet you.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:31:35] Same, dude. I really feel like parasocially I felt like I knew you. but we did

Brad: [1:31:39] Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:31:40] this was cool.

Brad: [1:31:42] A great way to be. Yeah, for sure. So all right. Well, thank you for being here. Thanks everybody for listening and, uh, we'll see you next time, so…

Abby Covert (she/her): [1:31:50] Thanks.