Exploring Life's Design with Aarron Walter

Welcome to Wake Up Excited! In this episode, I talk with Aaron Walter. Aaron is the co-host of the Design Better and Reconsidering podcasts, the author has several design books, including my favorite, Designing For Emotion, and he's a writer, a consultant, and a creative leader. Aaron and I go way back and I have him to thank for inviting me to give my very first company consulting workshop back when he was the UX director at MailChimp. I hold Aaron in such high regard. I really feel that Aaron embodies the best attributes a designer can have. He's thoughtful, he's nuanced and empathetic, and I think that that really shines through in our conversation. We discussed the never ending process of self-improvement, the importance of curiosity. How all research is really me search, this concept of super activities, which I have totally adopted in my lexicon. We talk about fire and how to think about money, and we discuss a whole bunch more around living and examined life and trying to be a good person. Before we dive in, I wanted to say that Wake up excited is a passion project and is totally self-funded. Since Aaron worked at MailChimp, and if you've ever listened to a podcast, you've almost certainly heard a commercial for MailChimp. I like to think that I'm my own MailChimp for this. So I have online courses to help designers and developers and product teams, people making digital things level up and we have courses about design tokens and design systems and a whole lot more in the pipeline. So if you want to support me, support the show and learn some stuff along the way, I'd really love it if you checked out our online courses bradfrost.com/courses. Now, without further ado, here's my conversation with Aaron Walter.

Brad Frost: What did you wake up this morning excited about?

Aarron Walter: I am excited about, turning the dials on my life. Uh, which I think is the core of our, our discussion today, but am in uh, a passage of my life where I'm really reflective what, what a better version of Aaron Walter looks like, intellectually. emotionally, spiritually, uh, which sounds very, you know, woo woo, but like what, what puts energy in my battery? What makes me satisfied with life? Happy is not a word that I, I normally navigate towards because it's so ephemeral, but,

Brad Frost: Yes. I'm going to give you a couple of minutes to think about it, and then we'll get started.

Aarron Walter: and we have complimentary skills, the work that we're doing on design better, that's exciting. I'm excited every day to watch my kids grow up. I think that's pretty cool to just see human beings change and evolve.

Brad Frost: Okay. So the first thing. Okay.

Aarron Walter: I find really interesting.

Brad Frost: That's, that's fascinating. That last part is interesting because it's like,

Aarron Walter: I,

Brad Frost: you're interested in tweaking your own knobs, but it sounds like there's also this, this understanding that everyone has these knobs to tweak people throughout history and living presently are they either know or don't know that those knobs exist or they're, they're whatever and who's, kind of figured it out and how do you sort of apply that to your own life? And how do you tweak the knobs to to your own satisfaction which which I love that difference by the way of satisfaction versus happiness. I think that that's like a really important point that seems to evade people a lot which is just like it's satisfaction is like it just like a deeper sense of tranquility or honor or fulfillment versus this fleeting emotion that is, that is happiness.

Aarron Walter: Yeah, that that's feels right to me. I, I really like to read and that's kind of a big part of what I'm excited about. Um, trying to fill a bunch of gaps of books that I never read that I probably should have read and also dig into some stuff that's, you know, maybe New and interesting, but,

Brad Frost: yeah. What, what have you been reading?

Aarron Walter: I, lately I'm reading, uh, right now I'm reading Donkey Hoti, which was written in, uh, published in 1605. And so, you know, like the human experience, 1605, it's very different and yet it's the same, you know, like

Brad Frost: Futility.

Aarron Walter: The

Brad Frost: Right.

Aarron Walter: suffering,

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah.

Aarron Walter: read Le Miserable. And, uh, that is all about trying to find a moral code, and it gets so confusing to one character in particular, I won't say because some folks may not have read it or seen the musical or whatever, there's one character that Has such certainty in his life that when that gets shaken and he's no longer certain about his moral code, he can't go on living and he has to end his life. and I I think that is fascinating that, you know, I too have been asking these same questions. Like, what does it mean to be? person to be a a good man, a good human, a good father, a good spouse, a good, you know, business partner, whatever. people, people keep asking these questions and they get lost. They get lost in it. And so I think, know, the more I learn and reflect on my life, the more I realize it's the same, it's always, it's always been the same, you know, I'm kind of like living, living the same human experience that

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aarron Walter: of people have who came before me.

Brad Frost: love that and I also think it's, it's important to note that you're a designer I'm hearing in what you're saying this kind of methodical working through this stuff, which I think is beautiful because again, whether explicitly or not, we all sort of are navigating that terrain. And I think what's interesting is that people are seeking for these truths that are absolute. And I think that there's kind of a humility that comes with the design attitude and mentality where it's like there's no such thing as that and it is more of a journey. It's about ideation. It's about,

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: about sort of separating less like here's a truth versus here's these things that tend to be more durable concepts or things that that feel sturdy versus like the I crack the code, right? Like, I don't know. Do you feel do you feel like this is a code to crack like or that you can or

Aarron Walter: feel like it's a code to

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: I feel like it's a quest that you never reach the end. And I find myself I. really interested in, uh, reshaping my, my mentality. So I'd say, you know, in my younger years, uh, teens, twenties, thirties, the way that I thought about it was sort of, uh, of, of life. not, not really life is like a, a big picture 'cause I don't know if I was that introspective at that time. But, you know, work and, and anything I was doing is sort of like, it's a checklist. Like I can get there and I can learn to do this thing and, um, I can get this done. Uh, I can meet this person, I can, you know, whatever. Uh, and it's, it's, really a flawed way of thinking, cause that's not really how. Time and life unfolds in, in, in my estimation, um, which is why I recently, uh, a couple years ago picked up the guitar again. and I also started, uh, juujitsu a year ago 'cause these are two disciplines like where you can keep at it and you can think like, Hey, I'm really good today and I've got it figured out. And then the next day. You can be absolutely humbled and just, it does not work out. Uh, I've had that happen with Juujitsu multiple times where I think, Hey, I'm getting good here. And I beat somebody who's of a higher rank than me. And the next day I just get clobbered by someone who's of a lower rank than me. And it's very humbling. Um, so it's just more of like a pursuit that, uh, you you just, you never reach a a destination.

Brad Frost: yeah. And it sounds like a real. acceptance of that.

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Is that, is that, fair to say? It's like there's almost like a tension of like the pursuit of, of mastery of, of these hobbies, of these, these experiences, of this like thing that you're curious and excited about, but also a recognition that it's like, it isn't about perfection or it isn't about like conquering a thing, but it's more just the, the experience of it, right?

Aarron Walter: I think that, uh, The younger me thought that the pursuit of mastery was like you could reach the destination And now the older me thinks it's a lot like Don Quixote where he's like pursuing, this noble truth of, you know, the, this, this honorable code and he just, he never quite gets there and he looks silly the more certain he becomes,

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah,

Aarron Walter: that's the way I feel about jiujitsu and their kind of metaphors for, The human experience.

Brad Frost: such heart agree. Like if we were to have this exact conversation, like fast forward 30 years, right? I'm sure we'll we will have learned some stuff. We've had some additional experiences that are shaped our outlooks, but I, I have a strong suspicion that both still be seeking, right?

Aarron Walter: I won't, I won't be doing any jiujitsu in 30 years. That's for sure. I will break.

Brad Frost: just, you can feel the, you can hear the bones snapping from here.

Aarron Walter: Maybe, maybe yoga.

Brad Frost: But hopefully guitar, I mean, like, you know, that's, that's, that's one of those things. I recently watched this video of, it was a drummer who was, I think like 102 and he's kind of at the assisted living place and he's doing it and

Aarron Walter: That's

Brad Frost: you could just see the neurons firing. And when you just see that, um, I I'm so fascinated by that stuff. When you, when people talk about longevity and whenever people talk about all of this stuff, it's, it's, you see it embodied in, uh, well, Les Paul was like another, another person, like, just like these older players, these older people that have been pursuing this thing, have been going on this journey for decades.

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: But there's this, there's this real light, there's this real connection, there's this real, there's a deeper thing there than like, Oh, that's cute, this person's had this hobby for

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: know what I mean? Like, there's, there's really something to that.

Aarron Walter: yeah, I saw, uh, Herbie Hancock, uh, perform a couple years ago and, uh, got to meet him after the show.

Brad Frost: Oh my god.

Aarron Walter: that was amazing. But so for those of you who are, are not Herbie Hancock listeners, um, he's been at this for. Uh, what, 75 years, three quarters of a century. he's in his eighties. He was an anchor of Miles Davis's band for a long time. He's done major stuff. Uh, and thought, Okay, I'm gonna go see Herbie Hancock, sort of as like a, I, I just want to, I just wanna be near that creativity.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: But I'm sure I'm not catching him at his peak. And I think he was 82 at the time and he was still incredible. He was so incredible. Uh, and, and still learning too, like, he's playing with young people. Uh, and that's something I've always admired about. Certain creative people who are constantly staying close to youth, uh, new ideas, constantly pursuing and learning. Those are the folks that I really admire. That is one thing about Miles Davis. There's a lot about his personal life not to admire, but his constant re-envisioning of who he is and who he can be

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: staying close to new ideas. He was very good at that,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: that, you know, people like Kirby Hancock, he learned from that because at, in his day, he was, he was 20 and he was the new idea, uh, bringing new ideas into, uh, to Miles Davis as well. So I, I like that. like being close to creativity and new ideas. I think it's contagious.

Brad Frost: I 100 percent agree, and I think that that's like one of the real drivers of putting this show on is, is that again, it's, I've experienced like a lot of people who exhibit creativity in a lot of different realms and There's, I feel like, only until recently that there's, above the surface level or like outside of like the realm of scientific literature or psychology or whatever, have there been sort of a few things, that have kind of surfaced about just kind of the, the nature of creativity and

Aarron Walter: Hmm.

Brad Frost: of these things like a Rick Rubin's book. did you read that? Like it's, it's

Aarron Walter: yeah,

Brad Frost: that's a, that's a great example of it's just like, here's this kind of, let's like pick at sure he could punctuate some of the points. using his musical experience, but there's, there's a lot of stuff behind it that is more shared. And whenever you, um, Sir Ken Robinson is another sort of huge inspiration of mine, like the element, or it's just like, just driving home this idea of like, everyone has creative capacity. So this idea of, you know, what is everyone a designer or everyone not, or there's, there's, there's this line. That separates it. And that's something that I've always been kind of frustrated by because people will approach me at a conference or reach out and they're like, they will imply. It's like, oh yeah, you're, you're this and I couldn't ever or, or, you know, there's this, this division. I don't, I don't know if you've like experienced that as well, but it's like, that's, that's something that I've like, I'm like, no, no, no, we all, we all have it. And there are lessons to learn from Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis and really anyone else who is. Seeking to improve and be creative and keep your Eyes and mind open to to to growth and and doing something different than you were doing before and that seems to be that that creativity that's in everyone is the thing that I feel like separates people that might be your age or my age that are feeling Invigorated by things or, or interested in things versus the people who feel like they're, they're languishing or they're, they're, they're stuck

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: or they're just like in a routine or something.

Aarron Walter: A Couple things come to mind uh, from that. is curiosity and the other is uh, personal identity. I, I think that know, the notion of I I am or I am not a creative person. that's a message that we create for ourselves. I think that humans are tremendously Capable of reinvention and creating new skills and exploring new territory. Uh, if we, if we allow ourselves, we, we do that to take that path. You have to be curious about. well, What would it, would it be like if I worked on something for the next five years? Imagine myself in the future in five years. I. What would I be like? How would I be different? Um, I want to, I wanna do something with fashion and and I've never. I, I've i've never done anything like that maybe a little like sew on a button on a shirt in, in home ec and now you wanna custom make jeans or uh, my wife got a bunch of kimonos in uh in japan uh, these vintage kimonos and she wants to do some interesting new things with them rethink them so you gotta build some skills um and it's just a matter of like. Okay, I I need to take some sewing classes. What are the resources out there? Uh, and go into that curious,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: humble as well. I think that maybe that gets a little overused, but clearly, you're, you know, if you've got no experience, you you go into it with an inherent uh, level of humility, but.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: Um, Allowing yourself the opportunity that you can learn a new thing. You can, you can try new things, whatever your job is, your educational background. That those are great. That's great experience that you can build upon and. you can start from scratch. You could learn something that is totally unrelated, seemingly unrelated. I'm, I'm a big believer that one way or another, you'll find some connection back to disciplines. But, um, I really like that. I am actually, I'm taking a mushroom foraging class online

Brad Frost: Nice.

Aarron Walter: Uh, I don't know anything about it, but I'm curious. And I I try to do like some kind of a class every year. I, I do, I do classes weekly. You know, I mentioned guitar and, and but, um, I also try to do some other class. Like I did a stop the bleed, which is like a first a type of class.

Brad Frost: Wow. Okay.

Aarron Walter: I'm sort of curious, like, how could I be useful in a, in a challenging situation? I think it's great to reinvent yourself and build yourself into something more than what you could have imagined.

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's, that's amazing. And you're embodying, I think what a lot of people, uh, would aspire to had they not already talked themselves out of it in their brain, right? And that that's, it's, it's a phenomenon that I see all the time with people. So for instance, it's like, you know, I do front end code. And I'm in a room full of designers, a lot of which have not done that type of thing. And I will just, you know, show them CodePen or, or they, they, they basically just hit this wall of like, but I couldn't possibly, or like, I need to, to spend the week. And I'm just like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, right? Like, I think that you're right in that the curiosity helps drive things, but there's this, opposite end of the spectrum or like that, the sort of force against that is this whatever self doubt or overthinking or whatever. And it's something that we all experience, obviously, but it's like the people who are able to sort of compartmentalize that or reduce that impact and allow the curiosity to translate into action. That's, I think, a really huge, that, that's a skill. unto itself. Because I do think like a lot of people, we all have inherent curiosity, but it's like you said, it's like the, the acting on it. That's the differentiator right there. And acting on it requires that, that first step, whatever that is. So like, just here's a little text box, you know how to write text. You've been doing that for nearly all of your life, like put some words in there and guess what pixels are cheap and you're not going to blow up the planet by writing it that's something that I've been able to, to kind of, I hope, instill in other people is this more of a can do mentality around this stuff where it's just like, again, these things are not reserved for people like us. there's obviously a lot of factors at play. There's a lot of like, you know, your situation, where, where your front, like, your environment, your, all of those things like matter. And, and it's, it's important to recognize that there is this really innate sense of, yeah, we all have creativity. We all have curiosity. We all have these abilities

Aarron Walter: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: to, to imagine. And it just is like, how do you Get people to to take those steps to actually move forward

Aarron Walter: sometimes it's just seeing it like seeing that someone else is doing it, seeing that it's possible. I think another thing that holds people back is they think, order for me to develop that skill or, um, learn something new, uh, it's, gonna be too hard because I'll be doing it on my own, but there's so many great resources out there. If you think about the world as a resource, whether you wanna learn to code, you wanna learn to make custom jeans, you wanna, learn to build a a home using timber framing like there are resources out there. Uh, if you know nothing, if you know less than nothing,

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: can probably find someone who's teaching a class who does sort of like a camp, online, uh, youtube videos,

Brad Frost: that like YouTube

Aarron Walter: the

Brad Frost: a

Aarron Walter: above.

Brad Frost: yeah YouTube is a miracle like YouTube is an absolute miracle like setting aside Whatever, radicalization in its algorithms and all of that stuff. It's like the ability, and we've been doing, we do it all the time with, with our daughter, where she'll ask that question, and that kind of has become our, like, default. It's just like, oh, let's, Let's just go watch a video of somebody doing that, right? Uh, we're drinking almond milk in the morning in our, in our, uh, cereal. Well, let's watch a video on how almond milk is made or whatever. And it's like, it's, it's just the fact that it's around and it's, and it's in this, there's something about the format, I think, of video too, that like kind of. Brings it down to earth in a way that a lot you could you know, you could read books You could like study it you could do that, but that kind of

Aarron Walter: both. That's,

Brad Frost: yeah

Aarron Walter: an unlock for me is I read a lot of books and I'm reading books on my own. Like Les Mis, it's huge. And people, people call it the brick. I I kind of want to understand it, like understand what's the, what's the backstory. So I use things like YouTube to give me a background on the French revolution. Or to find someone who's doing like a a book group on this and they go through it and and kind of give you some analysis. I use chat, GPTI talk to chat GPT while I'm reading a book and say, you know, give me a background of what happened in the French Revolution in the 1820s to the 1830s. Uh, and, and you just get all this stuff that gives you the context you need to really understand it. In a way that even if I was in a college class, I I probably would not have gotten that level

Brad Frost: no, that's right.

Aarron Walter: And it's just a matter of like about the resources that are at your fingertips to, learn what you wanna learn. And, you know, to go back to your original question, what gets you up in the morning? It's learning. It's just, man, I love learning new things. And I just like the more that I learn, the more I see the cross connection between All all the different topics, the skills,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: the, you know, human experience.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: and that gives me a fuller understanding of my life

Brad Frost: that's as beautiful and I think what's also worth pointing out about it is that that Your unique experience, right, like you are the only Aaron Walter who,

Aarron Walter: that we know of.

Brad Frost: but, but who, who hosts these specific podcasts about these specific things and have had these specific conversations and have also read these specific books. And I think that that's the thing that's another thing that I encounter and I'm sure you've encountered this as well, where people go, Oh, well, I couldn't possibly. Blog about this or share about this or write about this or pursue this because here's this other person Who's done this and it's like no, no, you don't understand You're coming at this with your unique perspective, like literally one of a kind, like Fred Rogers is like Pittsburgh superhero. Right? And it's like, whenever it's like, you are special. Like, there's only one of you. It's like, man, I have internalized that. And it's like, He's right, he's absolutely right. There's only one person who've walked, and read, and absorbed, and have watched these specific videos, and whatever, and that shapes your specific human experience, but that also shapes you. allows you and you do a great job at this at at sort of being able to share that experience outward to the benefit of others and I think that that's like that's so cool because like you could just be doing it and keeping it all to yourself but there's something really magical in that understanding that like your unique human experience can have an impact on others. And it has this, this exponential effect, which is the more people that are doing that learning, sharing, growing, helping, it's this upward spiral that you don't get if you're just kind of Again, you could just be heading a book and, and, and, and stay there. And that's, and not saying that that's like wrong, but there's this, there's this extra dimension that I feel like you've lived for a long time, which is this like really. Deep understanding that by way of sharing what you're learning, by way of, of taking these things in, but then kind of packaging them up for others to, to hold them up for others to, to pick at. Selfishly, I'm sure it helps you in your understanding of Oh,

Aarron Walter: I'm gonna share with you some wisdom that I learned from, uh, this guy, Dan Pink, who's written a bunch of great books. He used to write, uh, speeches for Al Gore. Uh, he wrote a great book about regret, the power of regret. And I asked him, why did you write this book? And he said, be honest, all research is me search.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aarron Walter: uh, I find that. You know, the design, better podcast and reconsidering podcasts, they're different topics, but there is some commonality. I am curious about these topics and I am selfishly trying to teach myself learn from other people. And by turning that into a podcast and kind of a. Media platform. It gives me the structure and the accountability to continue to learn. So, uh, yeah, like it's, it is good for everyone and I do want to share, but. You know, I, I come to it with selfish intentions. I, I just wanna, I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: to all the people and learn as much as I can from them.

Brad Frost: That's beautiful. But like, but that's the, that's the thing though. It's like, it's, this isn't a zero sum game. These things are not mutually exclusive. And I think that that's like, that's one of the, the biggest lessons I feel like I've learned over the years has been that I just, how few things are Zero sum or it's either this or that, and that there's all of these things that you can design to be these win win situations or win win win win win win win win situations where it's like, it really Once you realize that, that, oh yeah, I could be like immensely selfish and, and do this, but at the same time I'm going to structure it in a way that everybody else is going to be able to sort of catch the wake of that selfishness. And I'm going to put it out there and that's going to, yes, help you individually grow, but it's also going to sort of start people's own curiosity and whatever it's again, it's that, it's that upward spiral. And I think that that's, It's amazing because you're able to realize that there's no psychological disconnect because we tend to think of selfishness as a, an attribute to, you know, avoid, we tend to think of it as this negative thing, right? But once you realize you're like, well, of course, you're, you're taking care of yourself and you're living your own human experience, and that's it. But to not like focus there at the expense of others. And that's like, I think sort of something that I really want to pick at on this, on this podcast, because it's like this phenomenon that we're talking about. It was like, there's, there's the, the self growth, there's a self understanding, the self awareness, the, the, all of that stuff that we've been talking about. But then there's also this responsibility to. The people in our lives are these sort of concentric circles, right? There's, there's you, there's your nuclear family. There's, there's your, your local community. There's, you know, the design community. And so you, you kind of like, we have these responsibilities to the people in our lives are the communities we operate in the environments we operating in and the world at large, and there tends to be. And I don't know if you've experienced this and I'd like love to get your, your take on it, but it's just like wrestling with that balance of I'm taking care of myself. I am, yeah, my head's in a book and I'm, I'm thoroughly enjoying this endeavor. when bombs are falling, or when, when, you know, the state of the world is, is in this extremely unhealthy place. And so it's sort of like, there's something there that what we were just talking about, about that kind of, there's the self, there's others, and there's sure these like selfish things. That also kind of have like a positive impact on others if you, if you, if you share them. Right. I, I don't know. Like I covered a lot of things there. Yeah. Yeah.

Aarron Walter: I have a, I, I have a a way that I think about this. These are, um, called super activities. So there are activities that you can do that might you, uh, mentally, spiritually I. and, you know, nourish your relationships and there are activities that can do more than one thing simultaneously. Um, I'll give you a couple examples. So I started Juujitsu Because my youngest son dropped out and we had a contract. And so I thought, okay, gonna go ahead and take over that contract and get my older son who is 14 and at a point in his life where he has, he's got a lot of, uh, energy that needs to be channeled in a positive way.

Brad Frost: right?

Aarron Walter: He's got a

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm

Aarron Walter: testosterone. And so I want to, I wanna make sure that he's building skills and also learning. and, there's some danger to that. And that's part of growing up is being able to operate within a more nuanced set of, uh, constraints And so we, we fight each other on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Brad Frost: Amazing.

Aarron Walter: uh, so he's beating me up and I'm beating him up and we're learning all kinds of choke holds and, uh, boxing and stuff like that. And it's super fun. It's super fun together 'cause it is done safely, but we learn a skill. So we're nourishing our, our intellect.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: uh, I I, when you have a teenager, you rarely get to hug them. I get to hug him pretty regularly in a very tight way when we're fighting. Um. and, and we get to spend this time together and have this kind of shared experience. That's a super activity. I, I

Brad Frost: beautiful.

Aarron Walter: boxes. I,

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aarron Walter: I feel like there's also a spiritual component to that as well. Uh, for a while I gave my wife such a hard time because she goes to this gym that is like a, it's kinda like an old person's gym. That's part of like a hospital rehabilitation thing

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: and it's out of the way. So she's gotta drive all the way there, take her classes, you know, work out and then drive home. So it kind of occupies the entire morning.

Brad Frost: Silence. Silence.

Aarron Walter: that she brings to these classes. They give each other gifts that, you

Brad Frost: Silence. Silence.

Aarron Walter: it's good

Brad Frost: Um, Silence. Silence. Silence.

Aarron Walter: together. Um,

Brad Frost: Silence.

Aarron Walter: do a lot of cooking for my mother-in-law who's wrestled with some illness and that makes her feel better and be healthier. and when I can be of service, that is good for me. I, That's like, it's a gift for me that I get to do that for somebody else. I tell my, I tell my kids all the time, you know, a good man puts more value into the world than he extracts. And that doesn't have to be gendered. It's a good person puts

Brad Frost: Sure, yeah,

Aarron Walter: than they extract. and thinking about that, think can, can be a good framework for life. What can I do? That's providing value for others. I'm gonna get value out of that as well. When

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: service mindset.

Brad Frost: And that's just it. It's like, that's that last part is the thing that like, it seems obvious and, and experientially it is obvious as like, oh yeah, I see you smile and I'm smiling right back. And there's a lot of, you know, science to back that up, but yet at the same time, this, this kind of prevalent. Attitude, at least in America, for sure, is this like, this has to be this competition or this has to be at at the expense of something else and like, just fundamentally reject that but but coming back to what you're saying, I think that you brought up some like really important things in here. So you're talking about, I love this idea of super activities. I couldn't help but think the way that Society is structured. We're, we're kind of in this, um, in the phase of life where, you know, our daughter's almost seven. So it's like she's starting to get into activities. A lot of the people around us are a little further along that road. And you just see what this kind of, um, it's, it's kind of like a relentless. But, like, it's, it's the opposite of what you're talking about with these super activities. It's like, it's this, like, relentless, one dimensional things, where it's just, like, minivan prison, right? Like, it's, like, on my road, like, I, I watch The one family and you know, they're they're committed to it and but and frankly, they have four kids So that but they're just constantly I'm sure that they you know, they would have some version of like how this is a super activity for them but a lot I see a lot of the people in my life family members and so on really like There's a lot of misery there because it's not these activities, even though they technically like could have the potential to be these super activity. They are, they're like pursued, and almost like that the macro level design of the thing just seems to be just so narrowly focused, and it's so this compartmentalization of a lot of the different facets of life and society, the really frustrating and whenever. All you need to do is just like, whatever, read any book or look at any documentary or anything about like healthy societies. And they're the ones that are able to blend, you know, the Tai Chi's of the world where it's, yeah, you go to the park and you're out in nature and you're with your peers and you're doing these healthy activities. It's like, these are no brainers,

Aarron Walter: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: whatever reason, the phenomenon I see. In my little world, at least, is, here's this chunked out, segmented things that are being like, this is, this is this, and this is for this person only, and this is only doing these things, or attacking these dimensions of life, whether it's physilect, you know, whatever. And it's like, it's, we're selling ourselves short! Right? Like, these things You don't even need to really do much to change the structure of them. It's, it's more an attitude than it is anything else. I, I love that. What, what you said about you and your son and how you're You really, you have this awareness of the multifaceted things that you get out of this shared activity together, which is beautiful. And then I contrast that with the people that I see running in the minivans that just seem absolutely miserable. And I'm sure that there's, there's, there's some truth there and it's not an all or nothing thing. But like open yourself up to just the gift that is this like time together and whatever, you know, anyways.

Aarron Walter: I, I think we're, you know, we're, we're super social animals and, I, just think, I think it's so amazing how humans will just fall in line. even, you know, self-aware people just kind of fall in line to the social constructs of, is what other people are doing. You know, if I'm an 8-year-old in school and I see that my friends are all doing travel soccer and you know, I want to go be part of that. I, I can't blame an 8-year-old kid for that. They want to go do it. but a parent has to consent and consider what is the, the cost of this. I think that there's just expanding out from the micro universe of, you know, parents with young children. Um, there's so much of our culture, our workforce, our economy, our life, that is kind of the matrix of I, never considered that. Life could operate in a different way, in a way that bends more towards my interests, my needs, uh, my, my goals

Brad Frost: That's.

Aarron Walter: those who are kind of curious about it could say, okay, what's the cost benefit analysis here on if my kid. My eighth grader does travel volleyball

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: and they're gonna be, we're gonna be on the road. We're gonna have to pay for flights in some circumstances,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aarron Walter: we're gonna be gone all weekend. The younger siblings, other siblings, what's the cost that is paid for

Brad Frost: hmm.

Aarron Walter: and relationship there. The cost, you know, for a, a kid who's doing the same movement over and over again. My, My nieces have had multiple surgeries from that stuff. because they just, you know, do it over and over again. They

Brad Frost: Sure.

Aarron Walter: quickly, know, somebody like Jerry Rice, who's a hall of fame, wide receiver for San Francisco 49 ERs didn't play football until he was a sophomore in high school. so like the specialization so early, it, it has a lot of costs. think the lesson I take from it is, you make decisions that. Bends your, your, your time and your energy investment towards the payoff that you want

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: of the, the, the thing that you think you're supposed to do,

Brad Frost: I'd really like to use it. Since you just said pay off an investment, uh, this, this brings, uh, like, I, I, I definitely wanted to like, get here in our conversation, but I think that, like, one of the things with all of this, as well as, yeah, just whatever kids activities in general, but also like what we do with our time. And life energy is like there's money, right? And so, like, I think, and even back to what we were sort of talking about, it's like, oh, yeah. Curiosity or pursuing these hobbies, it's just the backdrop to all of that. Is, is money, we,

Aarron Walter: the, the, the opportunity, the decision making, if you are stuck on a treadmill where you've, you've got to just continue to make a certain amount of money, none of that curiosity talk decision making. Really, like,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: or makes sense.

Brad Frost: yeah, and, and, and that's, and, and that seems to be it, and, and it's a phenomenon that I've, I've experienced wherever people are like, oh, you're like doing these, like, Kind of weird things and I'm not entirely sure how you actually earn money or whatever But like but I guess what I'd love to to get at here and and this is so we've had conversations in the past So we're both. Um aware and and practitioners of of this notion called fire which is called financial independence retire early And there's kind of a whole ethos around it. There's a whole bunch of literature around it. There's a whole bunch of podcasts. There's a whole bunch of books. There's a whole bunch of like a lot of things. And I think I'm really excited to talk to you about your experience of it because kind of being outside of that apparatus, which kind of, you know, just like how design designers have a culture and we have like our little like ecosystem or bubble. I feel like you're kind of. Well, we're both kind of outside of that realm, but at the same time, I feel like I've been pursuing this in our sort of various stages of our journey. Around relationship with money, how we see it and, and how that's maybe unlocked some of this, this kind of higher level self actualization that you've been able to pursue in large part because you've, you've positioned things properly with respect to money. So, Aaron, what are your thoughts on money

Aarron Walter: I think of money as a tool. ideally, I would, I want money to buy freedom and joy, opportunities for growth. I am a realist, you know, I, I grew up, uh, in a family where we were always sort of to trying to get by, um, wasn't always easy and there were some times where it was a little, little dodgy there, but in the grand scheme of things, I, you know, I'd say I'm a very fortunate person and I've been super lucky in my life of being in the right place at the right time, born at the dawn of computers and kind of born into an economy that was gonna support my and interests and so forth. But, I will say that if we can be intentional and realist about money what things are bring value. to our life and, I value is something like we could deconstruct that word, but does it, create, uh, one of those things I mentioned, does it create an opportunity to learn, you know, is that a class or is that, uh, weeks off so you could just go practice sewing or, um, something like that, we think about money that way versus, uh, our, our wants, our momentary wants, I want a cup of coffee. I want to go out to dinner cause I don't feel like making dinner tonight, man. That's me. I, I, I am that person as well, But if you can of automate that and think about yourself 30 years down the road, uh, and start investing early. Man, that is huge. If you can start investing in your early twenties. Even a small amount like you're putting 50 bucks into, uh, you know, you got a Schwab account and you get, uh, like a total stock market index fund that you're just putting 50 bucks in here or there. When someone gives you a Christmas gift, a birthday gift of some money, that's where it goes. And you let that grow. It compounds and compound interest as Ben Franklin has said is one of the most, uh, amazing, uh, scientific phenomenon on the planet. Uh, it, it is, it's really cool 'cause it grows and what you want to shift from is trading your time for money and having your money make money for you it's really kind of like a mind. messes with your mind to think that way, that, if you've invested, well, you could be on vacation, spent a bunch of money on a really nice vacation and you could have made more than the cost of your vacation while you're vacationing because the stock market went up and, you know, you, you had some success there. you don't have to be super smart, super, um, nerdy about it. You can, there's a ton of great books out there. and, and maybe we could talk about some of those books that people could read and put those in show notes. But,

Brad Frost: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Aarron Walter: you need to be transferring that. Out into some total stock market index. So you don't have a large chunk of your personal wealth in a single place. Cause if that company starts to lose value, you're in trouble. You're in, you're in big trouble. Getting good at money is an essential skill at life. Uh, you don't have to be a hedge fund manager, but you do have to know how to invest and how to systematically transition from trading your time for money. Because there's gonna come a time in your life where you don't want to do that, someone wants you to do something you don't want to do. And you want to have enough fu money. That is, I want you to do this thing that you really goes against your, your morals, your values, your interests. And you wanna be able to say Fu I'm not gonna do it. I want to go over

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: I wanna take six months. Even it's like, takes six months to find a new job. That's fu money. That's not like an insane amount of money, but it is fu money that gives you the time and space to reconsider. that is what everybody should and can build. if they're smart about this.

Brad Frost: no, that's, that's great. There's, I feel like there's so much great advice locked up into that. coming back to, I think that I really like how you led it. Money is a tool, and that tool can be pointed at things and utilized to accomplish things. I think that that, that for me really sort of shifted. My relationship with money is like once I started to to realize that because up until That was was kind of presented to me it was You know, well, I'm, I'm working, I, I know I, I want to make as much money as possible because like you, it's like I, I grew up, you know, in, in a certain house with, you know, punctuated by layoffs and all sorts of stuff. So there's, there's the, the scarcity mindset that kind of comes with that. And so it's just like, well, obviously I'm going to go and I'm going to try to make as much as I can without giving it too much like extra thought around all like well What's all this for? Like what why exactly am I doing this? I know it's a good idea

Aarron Walter: oh, I think that's, that's a great question, a great question, right, right there. What's money for? What is

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: work is for generating money, but work is also for other things. It's for learning. It's for connection. It's for feeling useful.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: a super activity. It

Brad Frost: yeah

Aarron Walter: be. And what is money for? Uh, it's for protection. it is for opportunity it's for growth. it is for a few things, but, another thing that people get very confused by is. having outward signs of wealth uh, you know, consumption, consumption is wealth, consumption is not wealth. you know, you hear people say this, this phrase, like how can they afford it? Chances are they can't afford it. You

Brad Frost: Very true.

Aarron Walter: credit. They're paying a mortgage. They're paying a note. They're paying, you know, some, some bill on a regular basis. And they are consuming. You don't want consumption to drive your life. You want to have a solid foundation. Um, and when you do have that solid foundation and you've got enough FU money and you've got runway and you're clear on your values and you've got a healthy relationship to money and how you use it

Brad Frost: Yeah

Aarron Walter: achieving that satisfaction and that safety in your life. Hey, and you want to consume and buy a thing. okay. But also be aware of, like, what things bring you joy. So you and me, I think we'd probably agree, like, buying a good instrument, it brings me joy, 'cause it's a thing that brings me growth, and I'll have it throughout my entire life, and I'll give it to my kids.

Brad Frost: Yeah

Aarron Walter: a good spend. For me, like, a car I think of it more as like taking it from point A to point B. If you buy something brand new, it loses value right away. A car to me, just, I feel, I feel bad. Like I'm losing money on that thing. And I've tried buying something that felt really cool. and it just stressed me out. I'd rather have a cheap pickup that I can do stuff.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: dings it, I'm like, yeah, it's all right.

Brad Frost: Yep. And I to, to reflect on that. And you, you said it earlier. It's like the, the, you know, what are your values? And it's like, that needs to come first. Because a lot of times it's, again, it's just that kind of blind, just kind of myopic or shallow mode of, well, I got to earn money. And without a value system to, to really sort of undergird that endeavor, you can find yourself in weird territory real quick, right? And, and that, and that also translates to, yeah, you just, here's the Joneses, and you're, you're buying the same things because you see everybody else doing that. And I feel like having that solid sense of self, a solid value system, then. Affords the idea of in coupling that value system with money as a tool, you then have this really nice equation of being able to use money to pursue things that, you know, uh, embody and, and advance your, your values.

Aarron Walter: And

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: a simple way to do this is, um, if you can articulate your values, um, maybe your values are around, and learning and growth, for example, create a budget those are your budget buckets. So you align your money to your values, uh, in that way. So when you say like, I've got 150 this month for learning, got a hundred dollars for adventure. Or we're gonna start saving monthly for one big adventure every year. And that's gonna give us growth learning and family time or a couple time, whatever. Um, that's a great way to do it where you can start to articulate it. And then you've got the stuff that's like life's operating system of, I gotta pay for my cell phone bill. I've gotta pay for electricity, et cetera, but

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: kind of a different type of bucket than This growth stuff.

Brad Frost: I. Right. Right.

Aarron Walter: bring me joy or get me closer to my life's goals? Probably not.

Brad Frost: I love that. It's like you're making the value system explicit and it's that becomes like any good sort of design endeavor. It's like, here's this like kind of measurable. It's tangible. You could see it. You could work towards it. You could you could sort of evaluate how you're doing, getting, are we close or are we far away? It gives you kind of a lens into it. That's, that's great.

Aarron Walter: it can

Brad Frost: yeah, go

Aarron Walter: you freedom too there, uh, in ways that we might not expect. I, at one point was scrutinizing my spending on audio books. I really, like, I just love audio books. I was like, man, I'm spending this subscription over here. I have two subscriptions for audiobooks I was going through so many and I couldn't get 'em all at the library so and I thought well this is actually a good way to spend my money because it aligns with my values so I'm okay with that

Brad Frost: ahead. Beautiful.

Aarron Walter: money over here on clothing or I'll spend less money

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: I don't know. Restaurants.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: you know, one of those things that can get some value outta that. That's great. And that can align to your value system to a certain degree. But it is one of those things that it's an expense that, it doesn't pay back a ton.

Brad Frost: so yesterday I, um, met with these people, never met before, but, uh, connected and played music with them, which was really fun. They have a band and, I went into this house in, in Pittsburgh, which is like a total Pittsburgh house, but he, he's a bit younger, really kinetic guy, raccoons living in the attic water water damage like throughout the practice space and stuff, but it was great like just just real stuff a guy clearly loves music and We, we jammed for a while and then we kind of went in to a living room to listen to a record and he had this like big record collection and he was talking about how he went to a show the prior night at this, this cool space that is like kind of part venue, part record store. It's like, man, he's like, I, it's like, I spent 60 on these records. but then for the next like half hour, I just watched this guy as he was lighting up going through the album art and reading the liner notes and connecting the dots of this drummer played on this and also played over here on this other record that he had. And, but he, he kind of was repeating this, Oh God, this was like 60 bucks. And, you know, dudes living in a, in a place where, you know, 60 bucks could be spent, you know, repairing the roof or whatever. But at the same time, I'm like, Dude, that seems like money very well spent. Like you, you seem to This, this gives you a lot of life, right? Like this is not just like a conspicuous consumption and sure. Like there's a, there's a sweet spot or there's a balance. So you want to be responsible with it, but it's like material pursuit is, is connecting with what I saw pretty clearly is like this core. value that he has, which is this deep love of music. So it's like, yeah, that seems like money well spent. It seems like money well spent. Well,

Aarron Walter: doesn't destroy the record collection or

Brad Frost: right.

Aarron Walter: the raccoons eat the records, then you not

Brad Frost: This is true. This is true. Yeah.

Aarron Walter: and. fix the roof.

Brad Frost: maybe like pulling all of this together. Right. It's like, we've covered like, There, there's curiosity, there's pursuit, there's, there's creativity, there's, there's being sort of intentional and tweaking knobs and, and pursuing these, these super activities that allow you to get fulfillment out of multiple dimensions out of life. And like that all needs to be paid for, right? And having really sort of prioritizing that, that relationship with money, setting up some solid foundations don't require, like you said, like you don't have to become a hedge fund manager, like a lot of times it's just like kind of like working with a good professional. Get it, get things set up, get some clarity, get your head around, like what your actual operating expenses are. That for me was like a huge freeing moment. Like you were saying, there's the cell phone bill. There's the utility bills. Like, do you actually know what you're like general monthly? Expenditures are and that gives you a good idea of like how much you need to earn in order to support that lifestyle and it took me a long time to arrive at that. It was like a multi year process of sort of chipping away at it. But once I had it, then I could start going. Okay. I know that life costs this much money every year, which means that that's how much, that's how hard I need to work every year in order to live life. And that was tremendously freeing. It got me out of that, like, I just need to go, I need to earn as much as possible, and I need to do all these things, and I'm sacrificing my well being, other aspects of my life. Because I, I just feel that, born from that scarcity mindset of, of just how I was raised, and I think a lot of people are in that position, not having that clarity. Being able to articulate this stuff, getting your hands around it is such an important thing because it allows you to, to, to, yeah, yeah. And then from there, then you could start being deliberate. Like you said, like, it's like those, those buckets and stuff. It's like a, a great, I think that that's like a fantastic exercise. And I think like, like the, the first step in the journey is a lot of times just like kind of, yeah, rounding. rounding things up and just getting your heads around things and there's obviously kind of just that exercise in general often brings to life It's like oh, yeah, here's these weird subscriptions or these things that keep popping up that I could probably just nuke and and Not miss him at all or whatever. So, so there's kind of like immediate value that comes from it, but there's like that exercise is the first step in this sort of broader.

Aarron Walter: yeah, I think there's a theme in each of the topics we've covered here, which is the examined life, the idea of looking at one's life carefully, every aspect it. Not taking it for granted, asking questions like what does it cost to live the way that I, I live or I want to live and are there compromises or ways I can turn the dials here? Um, how shall I live? What are my values? What are, what are things are most important? And then how can I integrate that into? My budget, my day-to-day decisions, my long-term thinking, um, what does it mean to live? What, what does it mean to be a human and what is the human experience? And how do I think about my life, uh, on a greater continuum other than just today or this year or these years that I've been on this planet? all these are different stages of. curious, discovering new things, and, um, understanding how all this stuff fits together, 'cause it does.

Brad Frost: yeah, I love it. I love it. You brought up something right there as you're recapping it, that I think is a really important thing. That is, that is one of the other things that I wanted to talk to you about because I think that it was. It was through you that I first heard the terms seasons of life,

Aarron Walter: Yeah,

Brad Frost: and I don't know where that came from, but I internalized that in my own life, and as I've kind of like experienced some pretty dramatic chapters or seasons of my life, everything you just said, kind of recapping that, it's so important to say, Hey, This, all of those things, all of those questions need to be re evaluated, all the time. All the time, because your priorities change on the daily, but certainly like year over year, certainly as like big milestones happen, or like, you know, you have a kid, you lose a parent, you lose a job, you, whatever, it's like, all of those scenes. Right? Require that, that revisiting of all of these things and that's the journey, right? Like that's the journey that we're all on and it's kind of coming back to that like Can we arrive at these? Truths or answers to these questions the answer is no because time marches on the terrain shifts from underneath us And our time, our priorities, our values, how we spend our money, et cetera, et cetera, I'll need to change with that and.

Aarron Walter: the

Brad Frost: And it's,

Aarron Walter: us.

Brad Frost: a hundred percent. So, so it's like, it's like all of those things that we've talked about are, are important. And then there's this other axis that is time, which, which says like compartmentalize all of that and, and plot it along the, the, the time axis.

Aarron Walter: Yeah, humans are not very good at time continuity. You sort of see life right now and think, this is the way it's always been. actually it was different because, you know, I was different and the circumstances were different 10 years, ago, 20 years ago, a hundred years ago, how. People lived. It's very different. There's, there's a different continuity, but seasons of life to be able to think forward and backwards in your life, um, is really great. And, and I, there's an exercise we can do where we can look back and say, what was the theme of these decades of my life? Is there a theme of what kind of transformations I went through? What kinds of things I learned, what things I struggled with? Um, and then how did that change? From decade to decade and then as you approach a new decade to look forward and say, here's what I want this decade to be about. This is what I wanna focus on. But, uh, there's there's broader, you know, seasons are multiple decades where, you know, there's a pa passage of your life where you're in the building of skills. of foundations like maybe you know you're, you're you're getting a house you're uh, finding your, your partner you're maybe building a family and you're building a career and trying to build that nest egg this this is all like foundational stuff and then there's this season where. Your kids start to grow up and be a little bit more autonomous and they're, this, maybe you're thinking about things differently. Maybe you're thinking about what do I really need at this point? What does it mean? What's my relationship with work? Is that different? Do I work less? Do I work? uh, You know, in a totally different career, it's a very typical thing. It's, uh, common for in the United States for adults to experience three distinct passages of their career. It is normal to depart one thing and go somewhere else. And you can do that. That's okay. That's, that's perfectly fine to do. thinking about these seasons, uh. it relates to your money, the foundations of your life, uh, your career, uh, your interests and your values. Um, if we can expand our perspective beyond today,

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: can, we can live a better life.

Brad Frost: but but to bring it to bring that perspective into the present and to cultivate presence like that, I think that that's everything you just said is true and but to do that to point to the present moment where you're in your car With your 14 year old headed to jiu jitsu and you're able to acknowledge That like this is a gift because one day he won't be in the car with me because he'll be it

Aarron Walter: a half years.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: and a half years. So the

Brad Frost: right.

Aarron Walter: about what trips we want to go on, what skills I want for him to build because

Brad Frost: Yeah

Aarron Walter: the day when he leaves the house.

Brad Frost: Mm hmm.

Aarron Walter: own. And what does he need? What has to be in his bag of skills

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: uh, an autonomous human being who's safe and, you know, can,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: successful. I've gotta consciously invest and support my children right now because I gotta plan for that day.

Brad Frost: but all all the while I think it's like the so yes to all of that, but then there's like also like a I don't know if you experienced that phenomenon where like, And this is, you know, where people get anxiety from is like worry for like the future or whatever It's like if you do that too much you lose You lose the presence, right? And, and, to be able to do that, that's, that's just good planning, that's good, like, whatever, you're, you're, you're sort of building this stuff, but, like, to really recognize that these moments we have are finite, our lives are finite,

Aarron Walter: That's right.

Brad Frost: of life, these, the, the time with the people in our life is all finite. If you're able to translate that into presence and gratitude, then there it is, like to really realize that that it's like, this is a special moment. It's not going to happen again. You know, hopefully we have lots and lots of moments with, you know, our, you know, kids and the people in our lives, but like, know that that finite moment. is, is like, just be present for it. And, and I think that like what everything that we've talked about, I think are, are sort of can be then kind of funneled into this just very deliberate exercise. That is just like kind of showing up and being present and having, having a real sense of understanding that of like what this all is, which is like, oh, yeah, we're here, we're together and we know that that this is a good thing and what a gift it is that we're able to spend this time together, have these kinds of conversations, do these kinds of things. And not be too infatuated with, with what happened before, what's to come, to consider all of that, and, and point it, point both of those things, right, the past and the future, like, into the present moment, and, and to, you kind of supercharge it, like, that's, that's how I see it, at least, um, people have said it a lot smarter than I just did, but it's like, there, there is a way to just, like, kind of cultivate the presence and the gratitude Based on all of these other, there's all these like, just the, everything you're describing, like, the, the systems and just like our models and, and value systems and like all of that sort of like deliberate work provides this foundation for you to ultimately like, Live in the moment and be present and be grateful for this like awareness you have that that it's like, oh, yeah Like here's my life and here's where I'm at and here's the people in it and just be able to enjoy it

Aarron Walter: When you can think forward and see how life's probably gonna change pretty Just a few years, I. uh, you know, down the road. It definitely brings you into the present

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: and helps you like clarify what's important.

Brad Frost: yeah. Yeah.

Aarron Walter: will do that. But I think that, you know, there's other things in life, whether

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: or not, that you, you can get that as well.

Brad Frost: Yeah, but it but it just it requires that that introspection and I think that that that might be like a You know, maybe a good like parting note for everybody is, is just like, it's like, what, what are those things? Like, what are, what are your kind of bedrock kind of core values? And like, how are you thinking about, you know, your life as you live it and are intending to live it? And how could you, you kind of use that to guide your, your day to day life while building towards something that. Feels good that you could fast forward a couple of decades and go. Yeah, I'm glad I glad I lived my life like that versus Versus the alternative. Yeah

Aarron Walter: it's hard to be a human. We're, we're all

Brad Frost: It is

Aarron Walter: something

Brad Frost: it is but but it but I feel like uh feel like we cracked the code here in this conversation. This is good We did it. We're all done

Aarron Walter: at the we cracked it, but we at

Brad Frost: But, but it's like, I think it's like, yeah, the code isn't meant to be cracked. Right. I think that, I think that, that, that that's the cracking of the code is, is understanding that it's, it's not, not crackable. Thank you so much for, for taking the time to, to talk about this, this is like. This is like a dream come true for me. So thank you very much for having this. This is like, these are exactly the kinds of conversations I think need to be happening and often aren't. So, so I really appreciate you, uh, you doing that. couple things before we go. where could people find you and what, what do you want to sort of point people towards that, that's exciting and good for you?

Aarron Walter: well, my podcasts are the things that are kind of the center of my universe these days, so design better podcast.com And reconsidering.org reconsidering explores, how to build a life while making a living and kind of what, what the good life looks like. Um, so that seems very adjacent to our conversation today. Design better is about the creative process and, um, finding inspiration, finding out how to be a, a better designer, uh, and a creative thinker. So places to learn more about me.

Brad Frost: Beautiful. And then the last thing is, uh, what is, uh, some music that you want more people to know about?

Aarron Walter: I am a big fan of Kamasi Washington, and we had him as a guest on Design Better recently. uh, I love his album, The Epic, which came out in 2017. But, uh, he has a new one. Kamasi Washington's new album is called Fearless Movement and it is great. So if you're not familiar with him, he, uh, He plays saxophone. He plays lots of different types of music, jazz and hip hop, and goes in lots of different directions. But he's, he's fantastic.

Brad Frost: Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Check it out. That's, that's one of the things I also want to, to cultivate with this thing. It's like, there's a lot of great music out there. So I think directing people to, to some good stuff is, uh,

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Aaron, thank you so much. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you for for being on this thing. And, uh, yeah, thanks to you all for for listening.