Ben Callahan on Building Community, Your Values, and the Power of Connection

Brad: [0:14] Ben.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [0:15] What's up, Brad? How are you?

Brad: [0:17] dude. Great. I only have two questions that are for this entire show. That's the only structure of the show is the first question and the last question. what has you waking up excited?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [0:29] A lot of things, honestly. I like the first thing that came to my mind. I was doing a bunch of work stuff yesterday, in between calls, I was in my kitchen and I was making my favorite soup. I made this incredible ham and bean a soup. That's just like one of my favorite things, and it's been like cold and wet here in Ohio. So I, I, I just felt like the right time. And so I woke up this morning and I was like, I can't wait for lunch.

Brad: [0:56] That's incredible.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [0:58] Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

Brad: [0:59] where did the recipe come from? Like, is this like something that, that is like, stumbled onto it? Or is this like a deeper, uh, thing?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:07] Not, not a ton of of depth here. My partner Megan, is a really good cook and, um, I, I took a few cues from her approach to soups and, uh, so it's nothing fancy. It just tastes really good.

Brad: [1:19] Amazing.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:19] Uh, yeah. that's one of many things. I've been doing a lot of reading around just like how to be happy in life, you know? And, uh, this transitional moment I think comes to a lot of folks, you know, about my age with the little gray and their beards. and I think you start to think about, your sort of value in the world and, and like how do you, like what do you want to be remembered for and what do you want to be known for? And. I think I'm learning a lot about myself as somebody who just wants to connect people. You know, I just want people to like the, the, I have so many amazing folks in my life, in work and in my, you know, in my social circles and my family, all of it. And to just like, see them connected in interesting ways. And, um, that's, that's sort of where my head has been lately and that's led to all kinds of interesting things for the last couple years, you know, so.

Brad: [2:10] Yeah, so, so it's like you, you, because you, for as long as I've known you, you've always been connecting people, but it sounds like it's emerged as more of a, this is my mission.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [2:24] Yeah, I think I've known that I liked to do that, but I think I was always sort of, I don't know, it was always secondary to what I was doing, so I don't know if I would say it's the, it's definitely not the only thing I'm working on these days. I mean, I still have my consultancy and, and, you know, studio and all that. But, it's definitely, it's taking up more of my mental space and I think I'm, I'm working hard to find ways to do that between the things that I'm doing, you know, to sort of earn a living. I'm finding it so rewarding. You know, it's just, I don't know. It's just the little conversations here and there, and you pick, and you, you sense a pattern. Oh my gosh. I talked to two people who. Both studied architecture and now they're in design systems. Those two people should talk to each other, you know? So it's just a little connection. It's that just like little stuff like that, you know?

Brad: [3:11] Uh, that's beautiful. you're describing something that, that I'm going through right now as well, where there are these things that are these kind of almost secondary activities. Do the things that we do to earn a living or to make money that end up being the real mission, right? Like, it's, it's, like, oh yeah. Like I really like web design. I really like making websites and like, oh, I got this opportunity to like, talk about it in this place, or, or fair or teach, uh, in some way. And that was nice and that was fun. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming of making websites. And whenever you, you flip that you're like, oh, the reason why Oh, okay. Like, and you start directing your attention more at that, the, the deeper why. That's a really wild place to be.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [4:05] It is, the word I keep using is rewarding. I think it's like, I, I keep coming away from those interactions, just like feeling a little bit overwhelmed with gratitude. You know? It's like, and I that does that. I mean, I love making stuff on the web as you know, like you and I both been doing this for. A, a long time and, and I still get, and I saw you post recently on LinkedIn, I like to make websites or something like that. And I was like, yes, I do. You know? And, um, and I'm, and I'm, um, I'm doing that still in my own space, you know, for my own stuff. And I just, I love it. it's not quite the same, you know, it's just not as, um, I don't know. I don't know how, I dunno how else to explain it. Um, and part of that for me, I think has been a, a not only the sort of connecting in the way that I was describing earlier, but also like with the intent or with like, it sort of like soaked in curiosity, you know, like, um, like, like learning through the connection, you know. And so the, um, the, the most tangible example I have of this is. Like, we started doing these surveys a long time ago around design systems and at Sparkbox we did a bunch of those. Um, part of what was really cool about that is that we asked them one question at the end of all of those that was, is it okay if we reach out to you to talk if we have like further questions? Like you said something interesting and we want to dig in. And everybody would say, of course, it's totally okay. And so then I had this group of people who were like, they cared about something I cared about professionally, and they just gave me permission to let's have a conversation, you know? And so it started me down this path of, you know, just like digging in and talking to so many people in the same space, hearing the stories of like, sort of like wild origin stories of folks in our space who come to it from everything from like music to biology, to writing and like, it's incredible, you know? And so all of that just kept growing and evolving, turned into this sort of collaborative learning thing that I'm trying to do. And that's, you know, the question, I think you've, you've been on Brad as a co-host. Where we just ask the community something and then we dig into it together, you know? And it's, it takes so much of the pretense away from the industry where it's like, I go to an event and all these people are up on this stage. They must be so good at this. Or experts or whatever. When in reality, the, the, the reality has always been that like, you know, you're very good at this, but so are so many of those people sitting in those seats who have paid money to come and hear you. You know? And this, I feel that, you know, so it's like a, I love it in that way. And those, those people have become such strong connections for me now, you know? And um, so I think it's all sort of like folding into itself in weird ways, you know?

Brad: [6:46] That's that's beautiful. what's. Interesting is that not necessarily your head and shoulders above anyone else from a, uh, brass tack. It's like when you realize that the, your ability to make those connections and to cultivate the community, that's the, that's the talent. And not everyone actually is, is wired for that. Right. And

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [7:12] That's true.

Brad: [7:13] I think like a really cool thing is like you, you see differential and you're using your power and your influence and your energy equalize that and to do it in a way that is, uh, curiosity led, humility led, community led. Like that's, that's pretty freaking cool.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [7:37] Yeah. I never, I ne Brad, that's so, that's such an interesting, I've never thought about it like that, like the power dynamic side to it, you know? Um. That's like, I need to, I need to process that.

Brad: [7:49] you're, yeah. You're an, you're an amazing facilitator. And I think that that's what like facilitators do

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [7:56] Hmm.

Brad: [7:57] that, you know, and I'll admit that I'm quite bad at it just because I'm very talkative, uh, where I have a, I have a hard time, you know, just like hitting pause and, and creating space. Like you're, you're more like chill I think you just kind of naturally create like the space for, for other people to do, but you're framing for everything has always been this way of kind of getting a conversation going. You're helping people feel psychologically safe. You are, you are sort of, again, sort of picking at things with like a, a curiosity, uh, you know, that you're just describing. And when people are in those positions and they're not in those positions often, right. I think it's, that's important to say.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [8:46] Mm.

Brad: [8:47] So the fact that you're able to design a conversation or now even more in, in more of a formal capacity design, like an actual environment

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [8:58] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [8:59] place for people to have those kinds of conversations. Really cool.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [9:03] Yeah.

Brad: [9:04] cool.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [9:05] Yeah, that's, that's a really, that's a nice sort of way of, of viewing it, Brad. I love that. and it makes me feel even more sort of like. Responsibility for the work. You know,

Brad: [9:15] Mm-hmm.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [9:16] like when it's framed in that way of like, you know, balancing the powers and you know, sort of creating more spaces that are, that are actually safe and equitable and all that, you know? And especially in our culture, you know, with things that are being dismantled even as we speak right now, you know? So to sort of stand for that I think is really, really important.

Brad: [9:37] let's talk about that further, because I think that this is, that's like one of the biggest drivers of why I put this, why I felt compelled to make something like this. what's playing out in the world right now safe to say it's not healthy. Even the people who are like, you know, rooting for it, it's, it's like, I don't think anybody's like, oh yeah, like this is. Everything's totally fine and, and whatever. there's this interesting thing that I've been picking at for a while and I, is a big driver for this show altogether, is that there are people I see out there that are doing types of things that you are doing and that I think a lot of the other guests are, are doing, is, despite all of this, there's an urgency and a mission to counter that, not by countering it directly, but by forward with love and positivity and optimism and hope and in

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [10:44] Yeah.

Brad: [10:44] those things.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [10:46] I think it's interesting 'cause I, I haven't thought of it as like an act of resistance, you know, like, I've been moving down this path for years. I can, I can look now and see that, you know, um, so even before some of the more current stuff has been happening politically here in the states, I think I was moving on this path.

Brad: [11:05] Yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [11:06] but. I will say that a lot of the feedback that I've gotten from folks, um, like through the, the question or for some of the other little, um, things that I've tried to facilitate in that capacity, are it, it is interesting 'cause it's everybody acknowledges that they're learning a ton. Their perspective is being broadened on the subjects that we are discussing in all of that. Um, they, they talk about how their careers, they're, they're in a much better place from their careers. Like all kinds of really good stuff, you know? But the thing that is consistent is that the space feels like a place where they belong, you know? And I think that's like so simple, but it's missing from so much of our industry and our lives, you know? And so I think that's what has really driven it for me. You know, it's like hearing that kind of thing is like, okay, I, I feel like I got lucky early on. Just sort of like lucked into creating a space that was, you know. People felt comfortable in. But now how can I be more intentional with that? You know, how can I like take that, what's worked, what's not, adjust, iterate, move through it, you know? Um, so I'm reading this book now actually. Um, Aaron Ani recommended it to me. It's called Get Together, it's on Building Community. Have you read this or it's something you're familiar with. Okay. It's on building community. And like, one of the things they talk about in there is that you don't, like, a lot of people try to start communities in some way by creating the community. and this book is all about like actually know, you have to like let go a little bit. You have to let the community create itself. And so that's not quite how they say it, but that's essentially the gist of it, you know, and I think that's interesting for me as like a business person, you know, who's like lived. 16 plus years of trying running companies, trying to like create something of value there to sort of like move into this model where it's very different and it's kind of like hands off a little bit and it's just like, get the right people in the right space and the let it merge. You know what I mean?

Brad: [13:05] yes. in the process I think, of writing in or wrapping up a book, people are like, oh, like. How do you figure out what to write about? It's like, it, for these things to happen from the ground up. You don't go, uh, I'm going to write about, uh, that and then like, go from scratch and, and, and, and then like, because that's, that's hollow. It's inorganic, right? So it's like, it's the, it's the, the organic growth of things. you're not trying to like. Have you and your ego center stage or to create this, this rigid boundary and

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [13:41] Yeah.

Brad: [13:42] of it, but rather to just kind of say, here's a cool thing. Show up and you'll probably have a good time.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [13:50] Yeah. This is so,

Brad: [13:52] better for it.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [13:53] yeah, this is so interesting, Brad. When I first started, started my first company, it was called Forge. This is like a precursor to Sparkbox. I remember sitting down with my partners at the time and we were like, okay, it's a company and companies have missions, visions, and values. So, you know, I think in about two or three hours we came up with all, all of those and we wrote 'em out in a little Google Doc, and then we kinda just, it just sort of disappeared and we just went on about our days and I remember thinking like, I know we have to have these things, but I don't, I didn't like, I think at that time I just wasn't mature enough to understand like why they actually mattered or how they would play out in any way. But I would say the thing I've learned, one of the things I've learned over the last, you know, over the decade and a half, two decades of doing that work is I. Values actually really matter. and most people don't even know what their own values are, you know? And so like, understanding what you personally believe, you know, um, I think matters. And for me, I've done a, I've, I've thought about that a lot. And so the communities that I'm trying to create, the spaces I'm trying to create, they're all, they all have that in common, which is, they're just, it's me sort of like saying like, in a more public way, these are the things I believe.

Brad: [15:09] yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [15:09] And I, if you believe those things come jump in. You know? And what that does is it like, you know, it has that sort of polarizing effect where it's like, okay, I don't believe that I'm not going to that meeting, you know? Or holy crap, I've been looking for someone else who believes that, let me be a part of that. And now there's like an eagerness and, and there's sort of like, the values are the, the, the constraint in some way, you know? Does that make sense? Yeah.

Brad: [15:34] A hundred, a hundred percent. You, again, just like you're, you're creating the, the vessel that, like the values are the, are, are your boundaries

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [15:43] Yeah.

Brad: [15:44] that don't agree with that aren't going to like, cross that, that threshold.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [15:50] Yeah.

Brad: [15:50] have you done like exercises or, things around your, like, kind of personal values? or what things have you found to be helpful

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [15:59] Yeah. Yeah. I, so I just have my own little process that I use. I do this maybe once a year, sometimes twice if there's like a big change in life. But, I, I do this little exercise where I, I basically go back through my life. I look back historically at my life, because here's the thing I learned about values is like, it's one thing to like say stuff. It's another thing to make decisions. And I think values, especially in the organizational context, they, they, they rear their heads when things get hard. And you can see, do the things that they're deciding as leadership align with the things they've been saying all along. And when those things don't align, that's, you know, that's, that's where people feel. Un unsafe, you know? Um, so for me, like thinking about that, I've, I just look back at my life and I'll say like, okay, I know I made a huge decision here. I made this choice. What was happening in my life? Why did I make that choice? What are the things that I believed at that time that sort of led me to make that big decision? And so this is sort of like an aggregate ex, you know, exercise where when, when I make a big decision, I can kind of look at that now and be like, why? Okay, step stepping away from that, you know, 30,000 foot view. Why did I make that choice? What, what are the things that I believe now that sort of led me to that path? So that's sort of how I kind of manage this myself. Um, and I have a, a small coaching practice where I'm working with folks. And a lot of the, a lot of it starts with this because most people just don't, they don't know, you know, they just haven't taken the time to do it. Um, and so when we do that, it's like you get this like x-ray goggles into the life of somebody, you know, you can sort of see so much. And it helps people to understand why they enjoy the things they enjoy, why they choose to do the things they do, why they leave, the jobs they leave, you know, all of that. You know, it sort of exposes it. I, I've gone through that exercise as well for some of the community spaces that I'm trying to create. And the, there's a few of these like values that always rise to the surface for me. One of those is stay in learning mode. You know, I, this is like such a simple thing to me, and you do this wonderfully, Brad, every time I talk to you, I can tell you're just like thirsty for more, you know, you're like, you know, insatiably curious. And I feel like that for me, if, if I just imagine like a, if our industry could sort of reset, you know, we could go back to sort of the beginning of the days when you, when we were just kind of getting the internet going. And if we, instead of sort of like approaching it with like, let me teach you the things I've learned. Let's approach it with like, Hey, maybe you've got something from me. To learn, you know, like every interaction. If it was always that, can you just imagine how much healthier it would feel, you know?

Brad: [18:43] Yep.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [18:44] so that's like a really foundational thing for me. And, um, I, I, I try to take that into every conversation I have with apprentices, interns, with, you know, executives and clients, you know, all of it. It's just like, what can I learn from you? You know?

Brad: [18:59] HVAC person

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [19:01] Yeah.

Brad: [19:01] up to your house. Like, that's my favorite

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [19:04] I love it.

Brad: [19:04] there's just like, oh yeah, you're just here and you are, you're up on my roof, my gutter. What you got, man?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [19:12] Yeah,

Brad: [19:13] Like, I'm like, bring it on. Like, tell me, tell me everything. Tell me the crazy shit. Tell

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [19:19] yeah.

Brad: [19:19] tell me like what you've learned in 30 years of doing this. Like,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [19:23] Right? dude, and I, I, I feel like as, as people who, you and I both who, who are passionate about design systems, like one of the muscles that you have to develop as a systems practitioner is connecting the dots between things, right? Like, when I change this, what happens? Right? Like the, the, the sort of like. Field of interactions that all happen and come from like, cause and, you know, all that stuff, right? So I, I think this exercise of being curious and like, you sort of the gutter guy, right? Who's on your roof fixing stuff, the things that this person has learned in their 30 years of doing this, there's a way to apply that to what you're doing in, in whatever field you're in, you know, and as systems people, I think it's our job to exercise that muscle of like, how do I draw a connection from that? What can I do? What can I take from this that applies in my space? You know? And I think that's like a really fun way to sort of like take those scenarios and if you, if you're in the mode of thinking where you have to sort of also bring it back to work, there's always a way to do that. You know, it's fun.

Brad: [20:26] can, you can turn that on. increasingly I'll just, you know, share just life stuff or whatever. And of course, just by way of the, the, the vessel that we're in that is LinkedIn, all these people, you know, connecting it to, you know, and, and here's how

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [20:43] Yeah.

Brad: [20:43] that to, and, and I'm like, I get it. Like I get it and there are lessons to be learned and like, that's, that's good sometimes. But I do feel like everything has turned into that.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [20:57] Hmm.

Brad: [20:57] kind of like actively fighting that stuff where it's

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [21:01] Yeah.

Brad: [21:02] have hobbies, enjoy them. Not to make yourself a better worker, not to do whatever, but like, because that is what. Good and healthy life is, you

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [21:14] Yeah.

Brad: [21:14] it's, it's, it's like, it's, the things have become very, very kind of transactional or like, how can I utilize this thing? But there is just this like, kind of coming back to, I think what, what you've been picking at and like, kind of, I think, I feel like the, the arc of this conversation here you've been shipping away at all the layers. Like starting with, okay, like, here's. Technology. Here's this like web stuff that we do. And if you just kind of keep drilling, you end up with a bunch of beings floating on a rock all have hopes, fears, dreams, qualities, tendencies, the duality of man,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [22:02] Yeah. Yeah.

Brad: [22:04] do we, and what do we do with that? And what do

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [22:06] Y

Brad: [22:06] that?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [22:07] yeah. And it's like on one side, you know, there's the person like I was describing, who's taking the lessons from the conversation with the gutter guy and applying them in work and with their kids and whatever else. And then there's the severance side, you know, the other end of that, where it's like an absolute wall of, of between, you know? And I know that you're not that far onto that spectrum, right? Like the things you're learning in life, you're, you do apply in your work. I see you do it, you know, and vice versa. So like, what's the right balance? Like how do, where is it on that spectrum that you are, are trying to to be?

Brad: [22:43] Yeah, I, I think that, that increasingly, and, and, and I, I think that I'm, I'm hearing you sort of pick at it too, where it's basically like if you're able to design life in a way that you are able to exercise your full self and live your life without any form of severance, that's not to say like, I'm gonna take of my hobbies and smush 'em into one ball. But it's, I, I think that what I've been doing a lot of work on has been actively rejecting. So I do this, which means I don't do these other things once you sort of yourself from these, these kind of artificial boxes just kind of, uh, give yourself permission to travel to where your instincts and values take you,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [23:39] Yeah.

Brad: [23:39] can end up in all sorts of things. There's a dude at the Whole Foods the overseer of the, uh, self checkout, uh, sort

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [23:49] Okay.

Brad: [23:50] right?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [23:50] Yeah, I know this guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad: [23:52] Right? Right. But this dude is different he is playing a djembe, like he is playing a hand drum at the Whole Foods. He's got like the green vest on and everything. And this dude like, I, I can't remember what country he was from originally, but is somewhere in like West Africa

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [24:13] Yeah.

Brad: [24:15] plays the djembe and so everybody's in line. And so of course, you know, I have to talk to this guy,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [24:21] Yeah.

Brad: [24:22] But like, I love that, like that, that

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [24:24] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [24:25] so happy because it's like, it's one of those things where he is bringing joy to the, the many people. Getting corralled through his little lane

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [24:38] Yeah.

Brad: [24:39] and, and it's not hurting anything, you know, far from it, you know, of

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [24:44] Yeah.

Brad: [24:46] And, and I think that there's just so many more opportunities for people to be able to do that. Whether, whether it's like a white collar thing or an office thing, or a virtual thing, or a just casual interaction moving through life. And that's, that's, that's the kind of shit that turns me on.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [25:03] I love that. Uh, that is something I've seen you kind of embody in the world, you know, like just sort of being very vocal about these other things that you love, you know, as much as you love the web, you know, and, um, I think it's interesting 'cause I wonder how much of that is actual for people and how much of that is, um, sort of intentional in terms of like, who they present to the world. There's a gentleman who does a podcast now, guy Siegel is his name guy and he runs and it's, yeah. And he does this amazing po I dunno if you've been on there. I was on in season one and he was just like, tell design downtime. He's like, tell me something that's not at all about design, you know, or about the web or whatever. And I love this because it is exposing to me just how deep down the rabbit hole, so many other people go just like me into these wild, you know, exciting hobbies and stuff, there's, we need more of that, right? Like that's, that's a great example maybe of, of us Yeah. Doing that do,

Brad: [26:02] That stuff is that humanizing force. And I feel like at this very, like, increasingly kind of like cold and and clinical world. And I think that like one of the interesting things and maybe like themes that's, that's kind of emerging here. And, and one thing that we didn't put on the table quite yet, but the backdrop, I think to all of this, right? With covid happening within these last five years, I feel like we need to be reminded that humanity exists. we have gotten used to talking to people in boxes, you know, this like, for like client travel and stuff. We used to do that shit all the time.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [26:44] the time. Yeah.

Brad: [26:45] you would, you'd have your meetings, but then what, what would you do? You'd go out

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [26:49] Go get.

Brad: [26:49] You

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [26:50] That's right.

Brad: [26:50] right?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [26:51] Yep.

Brad: [26:52] And it's like, fuck, we lost that. Like,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [26:54] Yeah,

Brad: [26:55] that in a big way. so, so I, I do feel like the work that you're doing giving

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [27:02] yeah,

Brad: [27:02] pulse spec and that's very necessary and very needed right now.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [27:06] yeah. I'll tell you what, it's easy to forget it. I, I, I literally, moments before we jumped on was, uh, the sort of like, all Redwoods call for this community, and it was the first one. This is our first week sort of being sort of officially open. And so we, I. We, we, we did, we wrapped up this call and I, you know, it went, it went well. It's always like, the first call's always like, I don't know these people. You know, it's, it was a little bit of awkwardness, but it was great. Um, and I have a small group of people called the Redwood Rangers who are like, folks that are like helping kind of facilitate and just like being present and modeling those values and all that. And right away in the Ranger channel in Discord where we were hanging out, somebody was like, that was great, but it felt, it feels like we needed, we need more like, just space for people just to like chat and hang out. And it's so true. 'cause I, I look back at that meeting now just an hour ago, and I, I was like, all business, you know, I was like, we gotta get all, I gotta share all these things. I'm like, all this stuff, we gotta talk about the admin stuff, the tools and all of it. And I was just, you know, like even me, somebody who's like, I love this stuff, you know, I just, it just was out the door, you know? So, so it's a really good reminder, you know, to, to like let people just be people, you know.

Brad: [28:22] But, and, and, and, and what that translates to is we have to spend more time with people.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [28:28] Right.

Brad: [28:28] and that's something that, you know, we both do a lot of work around collaboration and

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [28:34] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [28:35] that and stuff. that's how those things tend to go,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [28:39] Yeah.

Brad: [28:39] like, okay, we got, we got 45 minutes. Like, let's, we gotta like make some, some calls. We gotta come to these decisions. And when you think about, you know, some of the most collaborative experiences you've had, be, it's when you are. with each other for a few days or, or, or longer. Like, you know, I think about like my, my college band, right? We're all like living together. So it's just like there's plenty of space to just kind of be just humans around each other. And then like, eventually you write some songs or you produce some stuff and you

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [29:18] Yeah.

Brad: [29:19] and, it's like, yeah, that everything has been put into these boxes. Like that. Yeah. Rejecting boxes has been

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [29:27] Yes.

Brad: [29:27] a freaking theme of, of, of like my, it's like you see, I mean, the Gantt charts, right? The Gantt charts, the, the ticket boards, the, all the stuff. It's like this shit's supposed to be creative work, you know?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [29:40] Yeah,

Brad: [29:40] And it's like, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. So, so it's

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [29:44] yeah,

Brad: [29:44] boxes, like across the board,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [29:47] you're right, these, this is like a topic and in like in our specific industry, it, it rears its head with like designer, developer, handoff. You know, this just like always comes up, you know, it's like for. Two decades, I've been hearing people complain about it, you know, and we get a new tool and it's like, oh, this is gonna fix it. And of course, the tool doesn't fix it, right? It's like you just put these two people in a room, let 'em figure it out. Like it's not, I mean, I don't understand why it's so hard, you know, just put them together, let them figure it out. That's, that's how it happens, you know? And, and, and it's hard. I think the challenge, of course is like, business is about scale. And so it's like, how do we do that when we have, you know, 500 designers and 1500, you know, developers or whatever it is, you know? So, yeah. Well, whatever. I don't know.

Brad: [30:35] I think that the, the real human work. You are doing and reminding people of, and sort of creating these, these outlets and these opportunities for people to connect, will go back into their box filled worlds

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [30:54] Yeah.

Brad: [30:54] with a greater appreciation of that stuff. Right? That if you are

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [31:00] Yeah,

Brad: [31:00] get together if they walk away from that going, was good, that, that felt good, that was a positive thing, that was healthy, that was whatever,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [31:10] yeah,

Brad: [31:11] there's, they're now inspired to say, okay, well maybe, maybe I do that rather than our next boring ass, uh, standup or whatever.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [31:22] yeah.

Brad: [31:22] Like maybe we at least just put some form of pulse into it. And whenever you like, reframe it where it's like, here's this person, this living being that has emotions, that has, you know, hobbies, that has interests, that has like perspectives, that has, uh, all of these things. It, operate fundamentally differently,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [31:47] yeah,

Brad: [31:48] But there's been this flattening the, the corollaries between the AI conversation and the political conversation has been, I've, I've been like coming back to that

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [31:59] Hmm.

Brad: [31:59] again. we are not giving ourselves nearly enough credit or, or, or seeing ourselves for the multi-dimensional and, know, valuable

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [32:14] Yeah.

Brad: [32:14] We are like, not

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [32:16] Yeah,

Brad: [32:17] not just our community, not just our tribe.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [32:20] yeah,

Brad: [32:21] everyone writ large.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [32:23] yeah. No, I, I totally agree. I think there's a pendulum that swings in the, at least in the, in sort of like the business world around this. You know, it's like we go through seasons where the sort of in way to run a company is we get to know each other, we hang out, you know, it's like chill. And I know all these people, I know their families, I know their kiddos, and, and now we can do better work together, which is a hundred percent true because I know these people, you know, that comes with. Its own set of challenges, but the other side of the spectrum is, no, no, no, no. We are not your family. You come here, you check in, you do your work, you go home. And there's like a weird health to that too, which is like, I, you know, like this isn't my family. And I, I do have a whole community of people home waiting for me to be there to sort of interact with and pour into and grow from, you know? this is a, I feel this is a pendulum. It's gone back and forth two or three times since I've been, had, since I've had a company. And, you know, the, the each side presents really hard challenges and it's hard to keep the pendulum from swinging so far that it reaches the unhealthy edge. You know what I'm saying?

Brad: [33:39] Yep.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [33:39] like, I don't know. So I'm not sure how we sort of create the right balance, you know, in that,

Brad: [33:45] it's the values because,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [33:47] yeah.

Brad: [33:48] values of we're all family here, and you use that to manipulate people and guilt them into

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [33:55] Right.

Brad: [33:56] with people and the people that have to go pick up their kids or suddenly like at a,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:00] Yeah,

Brad: [34:01] like, that's it. So it's like, it, it has to be born from that. Like, we are doing these types of things so that we can, you know, create a healthier environment,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:13] yeah,

Brad: [34:14] create like all of the values that, that

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:17] yeah,

Brad: [34:18] And same goes with the, the other end of the, of the, the spectrum where it's just like, oh yeah, it is healthy for you to spend more time with your family. And we are

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:28] Right.

Brad: [34:28] to, hold you hostage here.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:30] yeah. That's, that's, that's it, man.

Brad: [34:33] how have your priorities changed? and just like, when are you kicked off the conversation? It's sort of like starting to like take that, that kind of, you're, you're at this moment of talking about more like legacy stuff

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:49] Yeah.

Brad: [34:49] like, like this, this season of life is, is not necessarily that, uh. Bright eyed and bushy tailed, uh,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [34:57] I.

Brad: [34:57] But, but there's, there's also, I'm, I'm hearing like a lot of like, enthusiasm, for this chapter. So, how are you like thinking about this chapter for you

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [35:08] I think changes in somebody's trajectory. You used the word trajectory. You've been on this trajectory, you said, you know, and I, I, I think I have been, you know, and in some respects, I think I've kind of, for. 12 years of the last 16 kind of just had my head down, you know, and just like doing the things I knew I needed to do to keep that trajectory, you know, in, in the right direction. Um, and I think like hard things happen in your life and it sort of forces you out of that zombie mode, you know, of just one foot in front of the other. And I know you know, this, you know, and those experiences I think, sort of shock you into like, observation around you and like questioning, you know? Um, and I think that's sort of my story, you know, like hard stuff happens. You, I had to just pause for a moment and, and like reevaluate the things that are actually important to me, I think with that pers perspective, I was able to now that perspective and a whole lot of privilege, man. Like, I'm, I'm so fortunate because my. Role in my company is such that it's my job to just be present in the industry, to get to know people, to talk to folks, to, to write, to research, to think, you know, and take all of that and synthesize it down into something meaningful for our customers. You know, so,

Brad: [36:34] Yep.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [36:34] so I, I'm really fortunate that I, that, that there, there's a little bit of alignment, o overlap in the things that I love, you know? but I think it has made me sort of realize that it, the most important thing I can do is to connect with folks, you know? And it's, and it's my kids, you know, it's my partner. It's, of course people in the industry, like friends that I've made through technology like you and so many others. And, and so I think it's like, I don't know, I, I, that's sort of for me is like the story at least. And right now I'm focused on, on like, like the community side of things, just like really building. Really good, engaging community, and I want that to be a place where we give back to the larger community, you know? So I'm super excited about the sort of loose structure to that and, you know, giving folks an opportunity to kind of grow in their ability to share those things and to articulate things and to have peers to have like real critique with, and, and, you know, iron sharpens iron kind of conversations and challenging each other in that way. And, um, honestly, it's just like celebrating, you know, each other when we do something great, you know, like, I mean, there's, there's, I dunno. There's so much there. So, yeah.

Brad: [37:51] that's amazing. You brought, you brought something up that I think I, I specifically wanted to talk with you about, and you, you just used the word caring, which is something that I think that we know really intimately, but a lot of people don't, right. we who help create the web most intimately know the real power that comes with sharing and collaboration community at this like very like kind of, very large scale,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [38:24] Yeah, that's right.

Brad: [38:25] large scale. could you just talk about like what, what are your thoughts on like, on, on sharing as it relates to, your past, present, and future, but also like through

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [38:35] Hmm.

Brad: [38:35] lenses of, of values and, and community and.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [38:40] Yeah,

Brad: [38:40] Yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [38:41] I mean, it's so funny like that. You're right. This, this space is unique. We're, we're, we're like, and we don't even see it. I think you're right. Like if you're in, if you work on the web, it is just a part of your life. You know? It's just. You really do take it for granted. I remember sitting down there was a Thai restaurant downtown here, and I remember meeting our lawyer there when we first got started. I dunno if you remember this, but we did this series of workshops called the Build Right Workshops or something, and the ma Maker series. And

Brad: [39:12] Yeah. Yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [39:12] you do. Those were, those were good shirts. But um, yeah, I, what was so funny is we sat down with him because we were like, Hey, we need to like get a contract together because we are gonna go do these workshops with these in these cities or whatever. And he was like, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. This is our lawyer. He's like, you're telling me that the thing you're really uniquely positioned to do in the industry, you're gonna just go teach other people how to do it? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, why would you do that? I'm like, you don't understand, you know? And then I just pulled up and open a browser and I just went view source. And I was like, look, it's there. You can just, you can go see it. It's all there, you know? And he was like, oh. Yeah. Okay. You know, so I mean, that's the root of it, you know, and I think from the very beginning. Uh, at least for me, that has been like, just something that I love. I love to teach, I love to collaborate. I love the, the, just the idea that you could sort of see, see something you've learned, give somebody else a little shortcut, you know, like a little bit. Oh my gosh. You know? That's great. I, it's funny 'cause I was just, you know, when I talk with my team about this, like, one of the things we've done for a long time at Sparkbox is that everybody writes, you know, we have a, a blog and um, a lot of companies. You know, they, they sort of like hire out writing. They, they, you know, they sub that out to something else. These days, AI is doing it for them. We've never really done that. It's always just been like, what did we learn in the last month? Write about that. You know? And I think that the number one piece of feedback I've gotten from folks is, I don't have anything to, to share. You know? And, and I'm like, it's okay. Hold on. You know, and like my, I I, it took me a while to sort of like reframe this, but my simple explanation to them is that I think about it like just literally like a link of chains. Yeah. There's somebody further along. There's definitely somebody smarter than you. There's somebody smarter than me and there's somebody a little further behind. And it's actually really hard for those two to learn from each other. They need that piece in between, like we have to sort of learn in progression, and that means everybody has a responsibility to be sharing the things they're learning. And so that's sort of my general perspective on it. And. It takes away the imposter syndrome a little bit because it's like, yeah, I'm not trying to impress, you know, whoever is the genius doing this in the industry for 50 years or whatever. I'm just trying to help the person who's a little bit further behind make take the next step. You know? That's such a healthy perspective on it,

Brad: [41:42] I, I love, I love that that metaphor of the links. whenever we talk ourselves out of that is, is this, like, people are like, oh, well, those other links exist. Well,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [41:53] Hmm.

Brad: [41:53] people don't know that that exists. And guess

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [41:57] Yeah.

Brad: [41:57] There's this thing called a, a, a hyperlink that you can, that you can wire that thing up and then literally connect the links together.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [42:06] Yes.

Brad: [42:06] It's like, sure, it's that, but it's also just, it's, it's human expression.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [42:12] Yeah,

Brad: [42:13] And that human expression can only come from that individual with their specific atoms, their specific life trajectory, their specific experience, their, their specific tone of voice and so on. again, we, we, we put ourselves into these boxes or we like flatten this stuff into, it's like, oh, well what's the valuable key takeaway from this thing? And it's like,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [42:38] yeah,

Brad: [42:38] don't get me wrong, the, the, the key takeaway can be helpful, but you can also just tell a story and you can just

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [42:46] yeah,

Brad: [42:46] story. And I can't believe we've been this far into the conversation and haven't talked about music yet.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [42:53] ah, yes.

Brad: [42:54] about music as it relates to what we've been talking about or

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [42:58] Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think, you know, for the early part of my life it was, it was, uh, it consumed me, you know, in my early days and I, there was a time when I imagined I would just be a musician. I don't know if There's this choral group. It's called Chante Clear, I don't even know how to explain it. It's like 12 male singers, but it is, you know, the full range because they have men who can sing in these incredible falsettos and they have the deepest, richest bass, and it is like nothing you've ever heard. And they, they go to these incredible, you know, venues, these cathedrals with the best sound, and they record just this music that like changes you from the inside out, you know? Um, and I, I, I was into that kind of music for a long time. I was in those groups. I was, I was not that level of group, but in, in university settings and that kind of thing. Um, and I. And I, so it was just like a part of like, you know, every day for me. And, and then I, I kind of was learning a lot of other instruments at the same time as I was so focused in, you know, in that space. And so these days, you know, I I, I have really nice little mid-century piano here around the corner that I play quite a bit. And then I, I got my mandolin here, which I have been working on for a while now. Um, it was fun to kinda to see Jeremy Keith rocking it out at Frosted Palooza Chris and all the other Bluegrassers there, you know, so, so fun, you know? So I think it's like, for me now, um, you know, it's, it's not that I ever see that, um, I'll be some professional musician like I think I dreamed about when I was young, but it has just, it is just a. It's sort of like, um, it's, it's right. My mandolins right here because it's so easy to just, like, I can turn my chair, I can step away from the screen for 15 minutes and just, and it's like, uh, like loosens things up in my brain, you know? Like it lets me, and there's something to this. I know other people have other ways of doing it. I was reading about this mathematician who he used to, um, he would lay down and sort of like half fall asleep and that's when he would sort of be able to like, work through the problems, you know? But it was like this weird sort of InBetween state. It was almost like a meditation, but not sleep. I don't even know,

Brad: [45:20] Yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [45:20] that's sort of what happens for me with music, you know, it's like a little bit, it's consuming enough that I can't focus on the problem I was trying to solve and it releases something else. You know, the, the, the, the solutions I come up with, there are much more. Um, sort of all like well-rounded or something, you know, as opposed to focus, like, just fix the thing. It's like a bigger, I don't know how to explain it.

Brad: [45:43] I think that you're explaining it very well, and I, and I bet that if you were to just like have an FMRI of your brain,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [45:52] yes.

Brad: [45:52] like that would explain it perfectly.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [45:55] Yeah, I'll bet. I'll bet it would. Yeah.

Brad: [45:58] you fell into music early and like specifically this way that, that feels very spiritual. Like Right, right out of

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [46:09] Yeah.

Brad: [46:09] right out of the gate. Like it, like with that. This male choral group in a big cathedral, the output of that is, is such a soul level moving thing that you

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [46:24] yeah.

Brad: [46:25] seem to seem to understand. It's, it's power and gravity.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [46:29] there's nothing, like, I know you know this, 'cause I've seen you, I've seen it happen to you. But when you're playing in a band with a group of people who are all also in that sort of like zone, that groove, there is something that happens where it's, I don't even know how to express that feeling. It is such a unique experience and like with a choral group, whether it's, it's acapella and there's no instrumentation. I don't know, for me, like that was like almost like in like a purist form where it was just like, we don't even have, it's just what we can create organically. And like hearing your voice in such beautiful collaboration with other voices and I mean, it's like, it literally is like, it's unbelievable. I don't know how to ex explain that, you know? yeah. Yeah.

Brad: [47:20] if you, if you want.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [47:21] Right. The universe.

Brad: [47:23] It is. Yeah. It's, it's, I think that what it exposes is that it's like we are, separate but not right.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [47:31] Yeah.

Brad: [47:31] is. We are all one. We are actually like literally all of like the same stuff. Um, we happen to be moving around in these different biological bodies, when you are able to connect and not just like, oh yeah, like we, like we had a good conversation. you're describing is this like pure presence and synchronicity, and, and

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [47:57] Yeah,

Brad: [47:57] you are, you are operating as one unit

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:01] yeah.

Brad: [48:02] and, and there are different vehicles for that, right? Like

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:05] Totally.

Brad: [48:06] who describe like, you know, like whatever, like team, team sports

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:11] Yeah.

Brad: [48:11] you know, militaries and like, like other things, like there's these things wherever you, you are all fully present. You are

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:18] Hmm.

Brad: [48:19] that you are doing this activity, uh, totally concurrently with other people and you're locked in and you're

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:29] Yeah,

Brad: [48:30] as one that is such a potent reminder.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:35] yeah,

Brad: [48:36] Of the, the deeper truth that that is true for, for literally everything, for

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [48:43] yeah.

Brad: [48:43] the world, for the universe, for, for all of that is like, and, and that's why music is so powerful and, and it, this is the beautiful thing. So it's like as music creators, whether it's with your voice or through an instrument, get that experience, that real sort of special experience that comes from, oh yeah, you're all locked in and you're producing something together.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:07] Yeah.

Brad: [49:08] What's even cooler is that that gets extended to just the people who are listening.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:17] Yeah.

Brad: [49:18] whenever you are able to create true presence for the people producing and listening

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:26] Yes.

Brad: [49:27] the music, and you are all

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:31] Yeah.

Brad: [49:31] is all one entity. Sure some people are doing it, some people aren't. Not everybody in the crowd is, you know, somebody's checking their phone and

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:40] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [49:41] when you reach that like kind of critical mass where there's like a crowd of people and

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:46] Yeah.

Brad: [49:46] like actually present and listening,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:49] Oh yeah.

Brad: [49:49] is, it is one of the most powerful

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:53] Yeah.

Brad: [49:53] things that I think people can experience.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [49:56] Yeah, I'm sure you know Jacob Collier, right? The musician. This kid is unreal. I mean, uh, clearly an amazing musician, but he does this thing where he gets you as an audience to participate, and he's got an album out where he is got like recorded. He's recorded voices from every continent, and he's using the samples them and uses them in his records. And it's just such a unifying approach to music. I am like, delighted every time I get to see him, you know, and, and before him, Bobby McFaren was doing this wild stuff with the audience. Like, I mean, it's just, there's like a legacy there of like people who have to somehow tuned into that, you know? And you're right, it does connect you to something bigger. I'm, I'm reading, I'm super, like right now I'm reading a bunch of like philosophy stuff, just like weird. I don't know why, but I kind of got sent down this path. A friend of mine sent me a book. And anyway, I've been reading about the philosophy of consciousness and how, like there's all these different ideas about, what is it? 'cause nobody actually really knows, you know, like, and there's like a, a group of people who are like, yeah, it's just like you put the atoms in the right position and then there's enough processing in the brain that boom, you know, consciousness emerges. And I'm just like, okay. And then there's this other idea of like, we are transducers, like we are an a radio antenna and consciousness is in the world, and we just get a chance to tune into it. I love that as like a, the metaphor for me, I don't know if that's true or not, but it, those kinds of experiences make me feel like I'm tuning into something much bigger. You know, that's, that's what it, that's part of it for me. I think, you know?

Brad: [51:38] that's beautiful. I like to think of what we're doing now is a bit like operating in the visible light spectrum,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [51:46] Hmm.

Brad: [51:47] here's the colors of the rainbow and we see them and we know them to be true because we can see them, right? But we also know that all of these other wave forwards exist, right. X-rays, gamma rays, you know, and so on. when you pick at that stuff and you start talking about like energy and you start talking about frequency and things, start talking about consciousness and all of that stuff. It, it gets, gets into like weird territory pretty

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [52:12] Yeah. Yeah,

Brad: [52:15] but like I as just whatever rational person I like come back. I was like, okay, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Like,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [52:24] right.

Brad: [52:25] there's all this stuff, but, but we experientially feel, I. to something we

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [52:31] Yeah.

Brad: [52:32] to nature when we're walking in the woods or when we're hiking a mountain

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [52:36] Right.

Brad: [52:37] the grandeur of nature. Like, it is not, that's not pretend. Like it is something that we, we actually like experience. Right? And

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [52:47] Yeah.

Brad: [52:48] is the same thing. That chill that goes up your spine or whatever. Or people, you know, sitting in a pew in church. And

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [52:55] Right.

Brad: [52:55] the, the music and the pipe organ and the, and the every, like, these are real things. These are not like pipe dreams. Uh, these are actual phenomenon that like, that happen

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [53:12] Mm-hmm.

Brad: [53:13] world and in the universe. And, and, and I think that it's, it's fascinating and I don't know, like if you pick at it deeply enough, that is like where it like kind of crosses over into like. You know, the, the, you, you can put like a supernatural lens to that,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [53:34] Sure.

Brad: [53:34] even know if you, you need to, and that's

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [53:36] Yeah.

Brad: [53:37] where, that's where like, like the Carl Sagans of the world. I like

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [53:40] Right.

Brad: [53:40] I've always like dig him because it's like, yeah. I mean, sure those are interesting questions that like, and we should pursue them, but also don't necessarily need to have that like, supernatural thing to just understand that it's like we all came from the same stuff.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [53:57] Yeah,

Brad: [53:57] look at the stars and just be totally blown away by just

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [54:00] yeah,

Brad: [54:01] and, and amazing reality that we all inhabit.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [54:04] Yeah. And it's only weird because we don't understand it, you know? It's like, yeah, of course. It's weird. Like everything that's new starts off weird until you understand it.

Brad: [54:15] yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [54:16] So it's like, I, I used to be really like very sort of black and white. It's like, no, I'm not gonna, I don't believe any of that sort of like weird fruey stuff, whatever it is, you know? Woo woo. But I, that's not how I perceive it anymore. I think I'm just, there's like an openness in me now. It's just maybe my age or something. And it's not that I like believe everything I read or see, but I think I just am like, okay with not knowing, you know what I mean? Like, there's a whole lot of things I know I will never fully understand and that's actually okay for me, you know?

Brad: [54:47] Yeah, think, I think that that's like a real sign of, of, of health and, and

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [54:53] Yeah.

Brad: [54:55] 'cause I mean, and, and we kind of know this, like, kind of like bringing this like back to earth a little bit, where like with every, you know, project or every client or every like thing or every experience, like, when you go into something going, oh, I know how this is gonna go. You always find yourself surprised, right? So it's like over time you learn to say, yeah, I don't know, like,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [55:20] Yeah.

Brad: [55:20] know, is, is this the right call or is this not the right call? Yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna have to learn more and we're going to have to like dig, you know? So it's just

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [55:29] Yeah.

Brad: [55:29] we've kind of conditioned ourselves over a couple decades, I feel like, to, more comfortable with being uncomfortable and not knowing the

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [55:37] Yeah.

Brad: [55:37] And I think that that, that applies to, to many things in life because I love it, is kind of coming back to your values. It's like so long as you keep that the curiosity, you know, for a fact that you're not going to pick at the nature of consciousness because you're a curious guy, you're going to arrive at the answer

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [55:58] Yeah,

Brad: [55:59] the end of your life. Like,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:00] right.

Brad: [56:00] that's not going to

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:01] That's right.

Brad: [56:03] and if you do, congratulations, Ben.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:06] Yeah.

Brad: [56:08] music is so powerful to me because it forces presence.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:13] Yeah.

Brad: [56:14] when it, it, it is like a really amazing vehicle for creating that connection in, in a way that's, that's more difficult to do just by

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:26] Oh yeah,

Brad: [56:26] pay attention right now, or Let's all think about the same thing. It's

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:30] yeah,

Brad: [56:30] just, it, like it really does

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:34] yeah,

Brad: [56:34] you in the face.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [56:36] yeah, There's a synchronicity that's required for that, you know? Whereas we talk about co-creation in our space, which is also, I think, a powerful way to connect with people. But it often happens asynchronously. And in music it's, it's much more these days with tech, you can do some of that, but like, it's much more like in the moment we have to do it together, you know? And that's, there's, I love that. There's nothing, nothing better.

Brad: [57:01] No, there really isn't. the only other structured question on the show is, what music would you like more people to know about?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [57:10] Yeah, I mean, so the two that I mentioned so far, ch clear, I'll get you a link. Um, I, it doesn't matter if you're a spiritual person or not, but if you listen to their recording of BLEs Ave Maria, that will, uh, oh my gosh, man, it is like, we talked about Jacob Collier. Um, he, this kid is unreal. Like musically, he just.

Brad: [57:35] He

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [57:36] And I don't even know how to explain him. Like he can play every instrument. He can sing like mad. He's just got such a collaborative creative spirit and it, it adds like this other layer to his work and it's just so, just look him up on Instagram or something and find him. And he's incredible.

Brad: [57:54] better yet if you're able to see 'em

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [57:56] oh gosh. Yeah.

Brad: [57:57] because there, there, there's definitely stuff lost in translation. But what me and, and Ian and our sister went to go

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:05] Did you,

Brad: [58:06] and I've been like four rows back at a Radiohead concert, which was

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:10] that's

Brad: [58:10] you

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:11] so funny.

Brad: [58:12] the, the best concert I've ever been to. But like, but I came away from not going like, I think that I, can't obviously compare, but I was like, that

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:19] Yeah.

Brad: [58:20] easily one of the best musical things I've ever seen in

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:24] Yeah.

Brad: [58:24] life. ' that deeper level that we've been like, sort of talking about brings everybody in.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:30] He does. Yeah.

Brad: [58:31] and it's just, just something,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [58:34] Yeah. Well, it's so ironic that you mentioned Radiohead, because that's what I was actually gonna suggest for my third. I am on a Radiohead revisit now. I've been going back through all the old records because I saw that they may be starting a tour again, and I'm like, if that's happening, I'm finding a way as I've never seen them live, and oh gosh, dude, so. That for sure if people are not

Brad: [58:59] chronologically?

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [59:01] No, I, I started going, I started where I, I kind of like, was like, what are the records that I really, really love? I'm just gonna start there. And then I've been making my kids listen and, which is super fun, you know, like when we're cooking, we're gonna listen to some Radiohead. and then I've just started, there's a, there's a few albums of theirs that I actually didn't even know existed, you know, so like, there's parts of the catalog for me that are just empty. So I'm just now starting to touch on some of those. So, oh my gosh, man, it's such good stuff. It's like, and I'm trying to figure out how do I play mandolin to, to this stuff, you know, it's like so fun to just figure out how to, and this, that's the cool thing about Radiohead. I feel like you could put any instrument in there. You really could. It's, there's something universal about their music, you know?

Brad: [59:47] any track either like an old favorite or one from like some of the, the new things that you're like, Ooh, I, that's, I say that because I'm, I'm gonna put toge, uh, playlist together. Uh,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:00:00] This is so interesting. I, I stumbled upon somebody who had written, like, they were like giving their assessment of the entire catalog, and they put every record in order in terms of their, their, you know, their preference. And this was a bit of a music snob, and they were kind of like, some of the stuff that I love, they put so low,

Brad: [1:00:18] yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:00:19] so I was kinda like, oh. So I feel like I love the two, my two favorite records are the Bends and in rainbows, I just feel like the Bends has just got such a, there's like so much good energy in that. And then in rainbows, put your headphones on and listen to the first track on in Rainbows and it will like, blow your mind. It's so good. You know? So I don't know. I, I'll, I can send you some others, but yeah.

Brad: [1:00:43] No, that's that's fantastic. I, I, and, and hard to agree. There's, there's a lot there. I mean,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:00:48] Yeah.

Brad: [1:00:49] it is hard to, to choose and I

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:00:51] Oh gosh. Yeah.

Brad: [1:00:52] the, the music snobby people come out in spades for

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:00:56] Yeah.

Brad: [1:00:57] like Radio ahead. But,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:00:58] Yes, for sure.

Brad: [1:00:59] well, cool. And then, and then I think last thing, um, is, is just like, where, where could people find you? We are, obviously, we're talking about like the redwoods

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:01:07] Yeah.

Brad: [1:01:08] all of that stuff, so Yeah, just,

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:01:10] Yeah. I'll give you the quick rundown. So ben callahan.com is where all of this stuff lives. So if you're looking for something specific, you can go there and get to it. But the, the sort of like three things I would point folks to, one is the questions, which is this, just like open to the community. There's a list you can get on and then. On Mondays, I'll send a question. I get a cohost to come in. We come up with that question together. We analyze the data Wednesday night, and then Thursday or Friday we dive into it. Every week's like a little mini research project. And it's super fun. It's an incredible group of people. Um, so if you're just like curious about design systems or that space and you wanna start meeting people in this community, that's an easy way to do it. if you want to go deeper in that same vein, redwoods is just, it's brand new. I just opened that this week and it is, there's a small cost associated with it, but it's really. Kind of just covers the tooling we use to stay connected throughout the week. but it is very collaborative. We are supporting each other. We're learning a ton. And we're, the difference here is we're being really generous with our knowledge. Everything we learn, we're gonna synthesize and offer it back in some way to the larger community. So if you wanna be a part of creating, informing the industry in some ways, that's what that group is. And then, um, the final thing I'll just say is my company Sparkbox, we've been around 16, almost 17 years now. And, um, just, I mean, it's so fun to come. We get to just get to come into organizations, come alongside their teams, and just really help level them up. That's really what we do. And we do that. The side effect of that is like design systems or digital product design or all that stuff, but it's really about people and that's what it's always been about for us. So, those are probably the easiest ways to get me.

Brad: [1:02:46] Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for, for being here. Awesome. Thank you very much and congrats on, on your like launch of your whole

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:02:55] Yeah.

Brad: [1:02:55] was like really cool, so

Ben-jamin' Callahan: [1:02:57] Yeah. Thanks Brad I appreciate you having me, man.