Episode 12 transcript ·
Gemma O’Brien on Neuroaesthetics, Flow States, and Trusting Creative Intuition
This transcript was auto-generated and may contain the occasional robot-brained mistake. The audio is the record of truth.
Gemma O’Brien: [0:13] Welcome to Wake Up Excited, a podcast about living a creative and fulfilling life. I'm Brad Frost, and in this episode I talk with Gemma O'Brien. Gemma is a Sydney-based artist and designer known for her stunning, large scale murals, her lettering, calligraphy, and a whole lot more. I had the opportunity to bring my art teacher mom to Smashing Conf, which is a phenomenal conference about design and development and a whole lot more super inspirational, and it was so much fun to see my mom light up during Gemma's talk where she was presenting all of her work and talking about the importance of art, the importance of design. And everything that she discussed, all of her work really embody what this podcast is all about. So I knew I needed to talk to her, especially because she was at a really interesting point in her life where she was wrapping up a master's degree in Neuroaesthetics studying the intersection of art and neuroscience. So we talk about her journey into the world of Neuroaesthetics and talk about what she's learned about flow states and creative intuition and how we could all foster that in our own creative lives. We also talk about nurturing our creative selves, how optimism is a superpower, but takes a heck of a lot of work. We talk about the healing power of the arts and the importance of really stepping outside of your comfort zone in order to grow as a person. So before we dive into the episode, I just wanna remind you that Wake up excited is a total labor of love and is totally self-funded. So if you want to support the show, support me, support my family, I'd love it if you checked out our online courses where we teach designers and developers how to wield design systems, design tokens, and now AI in conjunction with design systems to make great digital products. You can check them out at brad frost.com/courses, you could use the code. Wake up. Excited to get 15% off. All right. Without any further ado, here's my conversation with Gemma O'Brien.
Brad Frost: [2:21] Gemma. Thanks for coming on the show.
Gemma O’Brien: [2:22] Thanks for having me.
Brad Frost: [2:24] so here's the big question. What has you waking up? Excited?
Gemma O’Brien: [2:27] Well, right now, I would say exciting me most is actually
Brad Frost: [2:34] going back to thinking like an artist. okay.
Gemma O’Brien: [2:37] a scientist for a year. Yeah,
Brad Frost: [2:38] so, okay, so you had like a switch, brain experiment.
Gemma O’Brien: [2:44] I did. I did have a
Brad Frost: [2:47] Switch
Gemma O’Brien: [2:47] although it
Brad Frost: [2:47] Although I was self-imposed. A switch Brain experiment.
Gemma O’Brien: [2:50] I've
Brad Frost: [2:51] I've been
Gemma O’Brien: [2:51] for the
Brad Frost: [2:52] in London for the last year studying Neuroaesthetics. Um, so I left my studio in Sydney
Gemma O’Brien: [2:57] it's been
Brad Frost: [2:57] it's been an experiment in itself. Wow. So, that's huge. Just moving across the world and doing something radically different you're like shocking your system in all the ways, but, but I didn't really know that at the time.
Gemma O’Brien: [3:10] did. I think I didn't know what I signed up for.
Brad Frost: [3:12] You're just like, sure, this sounds like a great idea. This, this will be fine. And
Gemma O’Brien: [3:16] Exactly. Like move, move to another
Brad Frost: [3:19] another country that has the exact opposite of Australia
Gemma O’Brien: [3:22] terms of
Brad Frost: [3:22] of weather and
Gemma O’Brien: [3:23] energy. Leave my
Brad Frost: [3:25] my massive
Gemma O’Brien: [3:26] become
Brad Frost: [3:26] studio become a student again in science.
Gemma O’Brien: [3:28] it was
Brad Frost: [3:29] It was insane on all levels. So we were just together at, at Smashing Camp in, in f Fryberg in Germany. we were all kinda down in the lobby celebrating after the conference. And you kind of ca came downstairs and you're like, I am. one week away from like delivering my thesis. I'm like, what whatcha doing here? This is a,
Gemma O’Brien: [3:54] Yes. Yes.
Brad Frost: [3:56] is a, a bold move there. That is a But you did it. You did, you deliver your, your thesis.
Gemma O’Brien: [4:02] I actually have another month
Brad Frost: [4:05] Okay, good,
Gemma O’Brien: [4:06] I almost finished and
Brad Frost: [4:08] good.
Gemma O’Brien: [4:08] like, you know what? am a perfectionist, and so I've went till November,
Brad Frost: [4:14] Beautiful.
Gemma O’Brien: [4:15] but
Brad Frost: [4:15] Beautiful.
Gemma O’Brien: [4:16] but I have been skipping all the parties in with all my papers and proofreading every
Brad Frost: [4:21] Every single night since then. Yeah. you are in the home stretch, uh, act, and I connected you with my wife, who is literally this, this weekend. She hold herself up in a hotel room. We got her a hotel room so that she could take these, like comprehensive exams. And it was like, as soon as the, the exams started, she had like 48 hours. And she, she was like, I think that I worked like 40 hours on it.
Gemma O’Brien: [4:49] my God. So was it one of those ones where you are in like a timed
Brad Frost: [4:53] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [4:54] Oh,
Brad Frost: [4:54] it was like, it was like 16 essay questions, but each question had like 10 bullets to it as well. So it's like, and that's like on top of like the, the thesis and the project and like all of that stuff. So it's just, it. You and her are like on this like sort of similar path. So that's why I was like, oh my God, like you're speaking at a conference and traveling while you're also doing this. Like really intensive.
Gemma O’Brien: [5:23] Yeah. You know what? It's funny though because after, I think I
Brad Frost: [5:28] I emailed with her
Gemma O’Brien: [5:29] and
Brad Frost: [5:29] so she just said, can't believe you're applying to emails. And I'm
Gemma O’Brien: [5:32] due. And I'm like, you
Brad Frost: [5:33] like, you don't even know the,
Gemma O’Brien: [5:34] it. Um, but full
Brad Frost: [5:37] full respect to her. And I also support the hotel room method. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you just need
Gemma O’Brien: [5:44] to be
Brad Frost: [5:44] to be
Gemma O’Brien: [5:45] hold
Brad Frost: [5:45] hold up in a room and just get it done. obviously you have an artistic practice and you have, I'm sure rituals and routines and things that, you know, that are kind of tried and true methods for, for getting you in the zone. were you able to superimpose some of those processes onto your, your scientist brain
Gemma O’Brien: [6:04] question actually, because having like 10 to 15 years working in like art and commercial illustration? Mm-hmm. took It took me that long just to work out how to, what was my workflow? So to go into into this new setting, like it didn't translate. Yeah. But that was also part of the reason why I wanted to do it. I had been in my art studio space for five years in Sydney. And that in itself was an an experiment where I went full into like, what is my artist identity like, basically like if you are left to your own thoughts and ideas, like what happens? And I did that I had all these crazy ideas and reflections and painted and experimented and did all of it. at the end I had this list of like, what am I gonna do when I leave the studio? 'cause I had to leave after this five year mark.
Brad Frost: [6:55] Oh,
Gemma O’Brien: [6:56] the whole space. I had like a list of galleries I wanted to like go to go overseas. I had all this list of like art goals, studying neuro aesthetics, was not on the list. And yet, one day I was like, I had all of these ideas written in the art gallery, like in my space where I was working. I just made this connection between the neuroscience podcasts I was listening to and, and the like art and design things I was listening to and thought there's this missing link in between that I'm interested in. Like where do I study that?
Brad Frost: [7:30] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [7:31] one course in London Neuroaesthetics and one in America called Neuro Arts.
Brad Frost: [7:36] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [7:36] like, what is this? And I kind of like just applied, just like, and then got in and I was like, alright, well this is what I'm doing when I leave my studio. And I moved out of my art studio and then a month later I moved to London that was when I was strapped into the rollercoaster and I was like, all right, I'm in. And it was like this, But I do think there was an element of like intention in like noticing that I had an artist's brain that was very all over the place, like shifting between things, working on multiple projects, like what's called divergent thinking like in
Brad Frost: [8:14] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [8:15] terms.
Brad Frost: [8:16] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [8:16] was curious if I actually went into an environment or like a way of thinking that was more linear or more structured, would that mean I would improve that skill and become a better artist by doing the opposite? But it was
Brad Frost: [8:32] Yeah, yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [8:33] Very, very challenging.
Brad Frost: [8:34] yeah, yeah. But, but it, it's, it's, you're, it all that sounds like you are putting yourself in a very different and uncomfortable environment in order to better understand yourself, your own brain, and just brains in general
Gemma O’Brien: [8:52] Yes.
Brad Frost: [8:55] how we process these things. How, how we work, how we. Connect with aesthetics, and connect with beauty, and connect with like, all of that, so, so what'd you find?
Gemma O’Brien: [9:09] well I guess, I guess as another little bit of a lead up there were other you know, obviously we live in a world now where there's so much that you can track in terms of like data, whether it's like steps or like your heart rate. And
Brad Frost: [9:22] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [9:23] also before I left I was like doing weird experiments where I would like run to an art gallery and like see if my heart rate changed in certain exhibitions or like I went to like a brain scan place and did calligraphy and thought like, what's happening? So it was kind of like very lo-fi versions of then what I was like reading papers
Brad Frost: [9:41] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [9:42] That are very formal. And I think the biggest thing I learned was that science is serious business in terms of like, what counts. You know, I didn't know the concept of like being statistically significant. You know, I'd
Brad Frost: [9:54] Sure.
Gemma O’Brien: [9:55] talks where like people have shown brains on their presentation and just had some thoughts, but it was a very different thing to like, you know, you know, structured psychology or scientific experiments. So that was a steep learning curve. I was suddenly in like advanced quantitative statistics because I thought I can do that without no basic statistics. I quickly learned that, it was like putting myself in like a burning, uncomfortable situation. Like I was sitting in the quantitative statistics, lecture hall and just felt like heat coming from my face because I knew how like over my head it was. Um, but then when I finally, I actually failed the first Advanced Quantum of Statistics exam because I just didn't know what I was in for. But the second resit, I went turbo for two weeks and I was like, I'm gonna get this. then when I finally like, I got a credit, like on the resit, I felt like, you know, you couldn't use chat g PT in the exam. It was handwritten. It was just what you understood. And that sense of like achievement was like so profound. Um, that yeah, I'm like, my brain works. My brain
Brad Frost: [11:07] That's that. I mean, that, that's, that's seriously, that's, that's so impressive. it reminds me, and I know like, yeah, you're talking about like, like health and fitness. It almost kind of feels like people experience those like plateaus in their health. But you can also hit these plateaus in other areas of your life, intellectually, creatively, whatever, where you're like, okay, like I can do this and I could keep doing this. it's not that it's things are bad, it is just that this is a known quantity to me. And it's the fact that you like Jumped into this whole other realm and had to like demonstrate that you're able to teach yourself entirely different skill sets. That's, that's incredible. Good for you. Congratulations.
Gemma O’Brien: [11:50] you. So, I
Brad Frost: [11:51] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [11:51] side of it, all those, like the core elements of the course that included like stats and psych and neuroscience and that was all new. But then the actual research felt closer to home. 'cause I was like working with artists and that, I was like, I'm gonna lean into my strengths here, which is like a network of like 15 years of like living artists who are doing the thing, which is like
Brad Frost: [12:13] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [12:14] what the papers were missing. Like they were doing experiments with artists in a lab setting where they're like, you know, draw, draw a picture from this triangle and these two circles and like therefore
Brad Frost: [12:24] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [12:25] And I'm like, that is not how it works. So
Brad Frost: [12:27] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [12:27] could bring in, you know, for what I lacked in this area. I brought some more of the real life art connections into the, into the study. So
Brad Frost: [12:36] That's fantastic. So you were kind of like, here's people that are out there living and breathing in this world, what did you study with them? Like, what did you do?
Gemma O’Brien: [12:49] So my portion of it, because it was, you know, obviously my first foray into research was just like self-report and it was about flow state. experiencing Flow State was studied originally like 50 years ago with artists. They were the first people that reported like this experience of like losing track of time, being fully immersed in the activity, having like laser point attention all this time passing. Um, and all of these different things started with artists and so. My research was working with another, researcher who was hooking people up to brain scanners while they were painting to see like what's actually happening in your brain when you're in flow state. But my portion of it was more just self-report, um, but doing it like in a longitudinal way. So like each day you are getting data, like as someone painting from start to finish. So like one day they might be mixing paints and they don't experience flow state, but then as they get towards the end and like, so it's kind of like seeing it across time, um, in a real setting, which was, which was cool.
Brad Frost: [13:53] That's amazing. you find anything that was surprising to you? Like, uh, coming out of that because like
Gemma O’Brien: [14:01] I mean the thing was, I think because it was my research was like, as I said, I'm new like. could have just kind of like joined onto what Ollie was doing and like, you know, written up a report based on his experiment. But I wanted to bring my own, like hypothesis. And so my, my idea was that you are more likely to experience flow if you are trusting your. Process. So if you're like following intuition in your creative process, then that's more likely to lead to flow state. So that was like quite novel. And you know, flow state's already fringe in psychology, like, and intuition is like more fringe. They're like, should we study this? Like, can we study it? Like, and I'm like, that's what I'm going to do. So I brought these two things together and the, I mean, I only had a small sample size, but it, it was statistically significant that intuition in the process predicted creative flow. And that was like separate from experience. So say for example, you might be an expert in what you do and there's like lots of links between expertise and intuition or like, is it just a speeding up of what you know And then, you know, but even after controlling for high levels of expertise, it was still like this big predictor of flow. So What happens
Brad Frost: [15:21] I,
Gemma O’Brien: [15:22] an artist in the, in the science room?
Brad Frost: [15:24] but not just an artist, like an artist that up until that point, spent five years literally pursuing. The intuition. What happens if you just put me in a studio and like, let her rip?
Gemma O’Brien: [15:38] Yes,
Brad Frost: [15:38] Like that's incredible.
Gemma O’Brien: [15:40] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [15:40] is incredible. Becau and, and it makes perfect sense. I've read a lot about, yeah. It's like, okay, we're gonna have these people kind, be it an FMRI machine, and like they're gonna like play like this classical piece and, and whatever, and like, we're gonna see what happens to their brain. And that there's like something fundamentally different that happens when you're, you're improvising versus kind of recalling, right? It's like totally different brain regions, but like, if you're extrinsically motivated or, or you're, you're paying attention to something other than your, your gut instincts it makes perfect sense
Gemma O’Brien: [16:16] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [16:17] someone who has experienced what it's like to, to follow their gut and, have fun and get lost in the, that process versus. Okay. I'm doing creative work, but it's for a client I'm doing this other thing. There's, there's these like extra forces
Gemma O’Brien: [16:32] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [16:33] at play. So you're, you're getting into like real, just what's coming from you.
Gemma O’Brien: [16:38] Yeah, totally. And like
Brad Frost: [16:40] Ooh,
Gemma O’Brien: [16:41] about extrinsic, like versus intrinsic, like in being intrinsically motivated, something you want to do like
Brad Frost: [16:47] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [16:48] also like one of the new areas where there's a lot of research, happening. I mean, the thing is now it's like. as I start to understand it, where I'm like, I am super interested in it. And when I said at the beginning, like, the thing I'm most excited about is going back to thinking like an artist. Like, I mean that because I miss it. Like I can feel the
Brad Frost: [17:06] Sure.
Gemma O’Brien: [17:07] but I can't. Um, I know now like all of this new stuff. So I think it's about like bringing it it together and maybe just being outside of the university environment just for a little bit to like see
Brad Frost: [17:20] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [17:21] Forms.
Brad Frost: [17:21] you've suppressed your being for a period of time, and now you gotta get back into it. You gotta let her rip. Like the, the, the, the hose has been kind of kinked up
Gemma O’Brien: [17:34] Oh my God. Yes. What's your favorite food? Brad.
Brad Frost: [17:37] my favorite food, ice cream,
Gemma O’Brien: [17:39] Okay. Which, which flavor?
Brad Frost: [17:41] all, all sorts of them.
Gemma O’Brien: [17:43] Okay. Well it's, it's like if you were like, you know what, I love ice cream. It brings me so much joy, but for a year I'm not gonna eat ice cream. And that feeling that, you know, that you get to eat the ice cream again, is like me right now. I'm like, oh my
Brad Frost: [18:00] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [18:01] yeah.
Brad Frost: [18:02] you've been living like a, an artistic, uh, monk, uh, or something like that.
Gemma O’Brien: [18:07] yes.
Brad Frost: [18:07] That's so, so like, what are you most excited about when you like, get back in front of whatever artistic medium you're gonna, like, do you have, you're like, I'm going to this brush, or this, this pen, or this modality. Like, what are you
Gemma O’Brien: [18:25] well, you know what the thing is, so I have a meeting with a, a new gallery actually, that I'm, I'm gonna work towards the show next year. So
Brad Frost: [18:32] Beautiful. Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [18:35] I've had like a bit of a break from my, like, doing an exhibition for a while, specifically because I wanted to have new inputs, you know, like, and new inspiration. And so think there's two parts of it. Like one is actually just like letting go of thinking and analyzing that mindset and painting and exploring through the physical form again without like, you know, kind of abandoning the way I used to do things. Going back into that, like physical experimentation. But then the
Brad Frost: [19:06] Mm-hmm.
Gemma O’Brien: [19:07] of it is like, what is gonna be the subject matter? 'cause often I work with text and words and typography. Um, and another reason I wanted to do this research was 'cause I was like. You know, a lot of artists, one, like dismiss words being in art because they, you know, the idea is that, well, should speak for itself or like, it's beyond words. It's like non, it's like all of these things, which I totally understand. Um, however, I'm also like, but if you did wanna paint words and the approach would be like painting words from the inside out, what does that look like? Like, you know, so I'm still that that part of it is, you know, going to be running, I think for the rest of my life, like the curiosity, because there's parts of the brain where it's like, you know, there's, this is the broker's region, this is where like words are formed. But like, like that's crazy to me. Like, there was a time where we didn't identify that part of the brain and have someone name. I don't know. I think there's
Brad Frost: [20:15] Yeah. Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [20:15] of, there's a lot of like research side of it that I think I will do independently and then there'll be the physical exploration. Um, so who knows what the next, next little bit looks
Brad Frost: [20:27] Uh, I, I love it. I am, I am very excited for you and I'm excited to like, see like what comes of it, but like, I think that what you're just touching on is, is I think something that's, that's really, really interesting. And with Melissa's work as an, as an arts therapist as well, I think that that was really kind of big thing for me was better understanding the immersion and the experiential parts of this and, and just the, the real multifaceted nature of art in general that's I think one of those things that despite being around art and my mom's an art teacher and stuff is like, despite being in that world for so long, I didn't until very recently understand that the artifact is part of it, but only part of it that it, that it's there is. All of these different parts of your brain that are sort of being activated. But then there's also just this, this notion of like time and the artist experience, and that's why we care about Frida Callow's, like
Gemma O’Brien: [21:34] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [21:35] bus accident that like left her, you know, like in a, in a state and stuff like that. And so there, so there's like all of that stuff that I, that gets woven into work that I think that I didn't really appreciate at that level until very, very recently.
Gemma O’Brien: [21:52] And I think that experience, though, is quite common because, you know, if you think about like, people either like, feeling like they can't walk into an art gallery because either they don't, they, it, it feels like it's a level of expertise or, but at the same time you have a gut response to like you know, like, you
Brad Frost: [22:11] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [22:11] colors, you have preferences, like, and like all the reasons for why you like certain things are both like complex and individual. But also, you know, a lot of the, the studies in aesthetics, it's like trying to find like, are there similarities? Like what it's super interesting. I think that another part of what made me interested in this was that as I was like looking, trying to like up my skills in art history, it felt like that was like a missing link that could perhaps be, I don't know, not necessarily universal way that people experienced things, but that the reasons that you like things could be like just because it reminds you of something or just because it's really familiar to you or
Brad Frost: [22:53] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [22:53] you know, like why do people go to the Louvre and see like these paintings that even if they're not into art history or they don't know anything about the artist's life, like, is it like the, the fact that it's just really well known or it's like a status symbol or like, there's so many different reasons. Um, and it's just super interesting.
Brad Frost: [23:12] I find myself, even as somebody who, I know a lot about music, but to like go to a concert and be brought to tears at a concert, doesn't matter like what chords they're playing or, or like what key it's in or Ooh, I really like that, that syncopation they're doing there, whatever. When you are able to be present with, with any beautiful thing, it overtakes you, right? There's like, there is something very, very primal. That's very interesting because it's, it's not an intellectual thing. It's, oh, I don't know anything about art. I don't, I, I can't, I can't do that. I can't draw worth of crap or whatever. It's like, no, no, no. Like you get put in front of a powerful piece of, of artwork or a moving aesthetic experience and, and you will be moved 'cause you're a human being and you have a brain in your head.
Gemma O’Brien: [24:09] Well, it's funny because, because I draw and I also do calligraphy, it's either I can't draw, I've never been able to draw, or I have terrible handwriting and it's always, um, that's always the thing, you know? And I mean, I truly think, like, of course there's so many different factors, but I think it's the same as any like skill or like, if you have someone who's like, supportive of you or like gives you positive feedback when you're younger, or if you show a drawing in class and everyone loves it and
Brad Frost: [24:45] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [24:46] that skill or you have someone that like shows you new techniques that allows you to like develop. I do truly think that anybody can do it. It's whether you actually want to, um, and whether you get something out of it, I guess it's probably the same as like maybe playing an instrument or.
Brad Frost: [25:03] Oh yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [25:04] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [25:05] Any, any, any creative endeavor and, and like, one of the, the biggest things like. I'd say about music is that it's like we are hardwired for it. Like you see any toddler that could stand on two feet and you put on music, they know what to do. Right. It's, it's, this stuff is hardwired in us. And, and I'd also say that we're hardwired to, to draw and create and whatever. And a lot of it's the, those extrinsic and environmental factors that end up talking people out of it. and sort of back to, to Melissa and her work as an arts therapist. 'cause she has to encounter these people who are, you know, in various stages of, of, of pain or recovering from trauma or in the process of dying. And like all of like, these really like hard things and they still are holding onto that. Like, I can't, I can't draw. And the, the exercise for Melissa and other arts therapists is stuff is to sort of like help them get over that hurdle. it's back to, to your research, like just going from your gut rather than focusing on like, like the technical outcome
Gemma O’Brien: [26:15] tell me more about what, how she works with these people. Like, is it just like tools are provided or are you like looking at like, objects to draw, or is it purely from imagination or
Brad Frost: [26:27] it's so vast. The things that you can do and like, I think that this is like one of the other really interesting things that I wanna get your take on because you have wove between so many different mediums and stuff. Is, is like certain things are good at. Doing certain things. If you're trying to, if you're trying to, process your own self identity, there's like, these, like masks are, are like, it is like, oh, okay, here's like, like a mask that we've done. But then it's like, if you just like need to get some shit out, like, here's a big old piece of clay, beat the hell out of this thing, and like, really, like, let it, let her rip. Like each one of these artistic mediums has their own kind of material affordances, I guess, that are conducive for certain kinds of, of healing. I'm geeking out as kind of like a person just in the passenger seat. A lot of this but, but I'm curious. Like,
Gemma O’Brien: [27:25] husband, but also like as a fan of like how it works. And it's cool, you know.
Brad Frost: [27:31] I've truly, with all apart believe that everyone has creative capacity. Everyone can and should participate in the arts. That doesn't mean you need to, you know, be able to be a virtuoso and, and, you know, play your own concerts. But it does mean that if you feel like picking up an instrument or, or sketching a sketch, we could do it
Gemma O’Brien: [27:56] yeah.
Brad Frost: [27:57] if we do it. Like, you don't need to be you, like, you don't need to be jealous, like do a big old mural, but like, give yourself the permission to just like get at it if you, if you at all like feel like that,
Gemma O’Brien: [28:10] Well I liked what you said about also when you were talking about what Melissa did with the different, like, you know, it could be clay or it could be drawing because like has those different sensibilities and it could be in the physical, like just the movement. Or it could be, you know, there were some studies that I was reading about that was talking about, um, whether you are more likely to experience flow from drawing, like creating art or from looking at art. And it found that it's more likely to occur from drawing, but it was actually suggesting that it's because you're distracted, so that if you're having, like, if you've experienced trauma, if you're having negative thoughts, sometimes the process of like drawing a lemon like that actually takes up so much cognitive resources that it might distract you from the horrible thoughts that you're have. So there's like so many different ways. like going back to the non, like the nonverbal or not using like language or writing, it is all of the arts are just different forms of expression that might resonate with some people or might. Yeah, I think it's, it's super cool.
Brad Frost: [29:18] this is, I think something that, that's really fascinating about, neuroaesthetics the arts in general and, and even back to what you were talking about with, uh, lettering or not, and, and oh, like, is that verboten? Or you're breaking some rule or sort of something like that. But it's, it's like our language centers of our brain, right. And, and our, our ability to articulate thoughts, especially that of our inner selves, how we're feeling.
Gemma O’Brien: [29:49] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [29:49] We're very, very bad at that. Most people are very, very, very bad at that.
Gemma O’Brien: [29:56] I, it's like hangry. It's like, am I hungry or am I like,
Brad Frost: [30:00] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [30:01] like, it's, it's true. Like you
Brad Frost: [30:03] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [30:03] don't know to identify and like to, or even if you do know, like, to be able to then express that, like there's
Brad Frost: [30:10] Yep,
Gemma O’Brien: [30:11] many different
Brad Frost: [30:12] yep,
Gemma O’Brien: [30:13] Like
Brad Frost: [30:13] yep,
Gemma O’Brien: [30:14] we're weird human creatures on this earth. Like, don't
Brad Frost: [30:19] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [30:19] about it too much.
Brad Frost: [30:20] yeah, yeah. When you experience the arts, when you like, can feel people's anguish or you could feel their frustration or you could feel their joy, it's very, very difficult to, just express that verbal, like, you, you literally can't express it any other way. , There's something there that is just like, it is a, whenever people say like, music is a language, or art is a language, it's like, it's it's freaking true. It's like it's act it's, it's taken my whole life to go, oh, like that's act like now I understand what they mean by that. Like, it's not just like some. Wanky phrase.
Gemma O’Brien: [30:57] yes, yes.
Brad Frost: [30:59] It's actually pretty profound.
Gemma O’Brien: [31:01] like the idea of like getting the, getting the chills or like, um, having an emotional response, I think it's always interesting when it takes you by surprise when that happens. Like, I don't know if you've ever, whether it's been music ages, I would hear stories like, or art historians talking about like, oh, have you ever cried in front of a painting? And I kind of like, you know, kind of rolled my eyes at this idea and thinking
Brad Frost: [31:24] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [31:24] then until one day I was in a gallery and it happened, and I, and, and it took me by surprise, you know, you don't, you don't, it's not in your control.
Brad Frost: [31:33] yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [31:33] of just happens. And I think
Brad Frost: [31:37] That's the beautiful thing about it, is that it's like That is your body, your biological body. Yeah. you didn't think I'm gonna do this now I feel like crying and I'm going to activate that, that cry switch. It's like, and that's why like es especially like whatever COD started breaking, and I went to my first concerts kind of whenever it was starting to be safe to do that.
Gemma O’Brien: [32:03] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [32:04] I was like, oh my God. And I was like, you know, quick to just be like. Hey, remember concerts? You should go to one of those because it's like, it, it's very difficult to have those kinds of experiences, like just like privately or like, yeah, like you're, you know, we can watch movies. Movies do do a pretty good job. there's something to be said about the immersive presence that kind of comes with being face to face with something,
Gemma O’Brien: [32:36] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [32:37] a, a performance or a, or a canvas or, or something else.
Gemma O’Brien: [32:40] Yeah. And with other people as well. I think you mentioned before, like the shared feeling, and it could be in music or even, it could be in sports, I guess it's a shared positive feeling, but it could be any,
Brad Frost: [32:53] I.
Gemma O’Brien: [32:53] spectrum of emotions.
Brad Frost: [32:55] there's a term for it that I, that I learned, and it was a, as a psychologist, collective effervescence. people, people, people in church, pews singing in unison, people at a concert, all kind of experiencing something. People being around a, you know, a theater performance or laughing at an improv show or, or whatever. It's, it, there is this, this, this elevation
Gemma O’Brien: [33:23] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [33:24] occurs that can really only happen when you are in the presence of, of others. That, that takes it beyond just like your, your personal. Experience.
Gemma O’Brien: [33:36] it's,
Brad Frost: [33:37] It's like I, whenever I like learned that, I was like, I know what they're talking about.
Gemma O’Brien: [33:46] nce.
Brad Frost: [33:46] Yeah. Pretty good.
Gemma O’Brien: [33:48] the goal. I
Brad Frost: [33:48] Pretty.
Gemma O’Brien: [33:49] can, I actually was thinking, because when I arrived in London, like, you know, so many, being in Australia, it's very, it's a, it's a smaller town. Like everyone talks to each other. Like, I am naturally, like I will talk to someone making my coffee. Like I, I have love just having that little chitchat. And when I got to London, I realized it was a different vibe and it's that collective energy, however you realize that you can shift it like in small interactions, like it only takes, I thought they should just hire people, like where their job is to just walk around and friendly to people come to,
Brad Frost: [34:28] your, that's your job. Yeah. That's your new job.
Gemma O’Brien: [34:32] So, um, yeah, if
Brad Frost: [34:35] I, I love, I I love that. Like, let, let's, let's dig into that because I think that that is very much the spirit of the show and you know, just watching you talk on stage and stuff of like, ah, yeah, there we go. There. Like, ' I'm, I'm very curious to get your take on this because I think that there's like a natural predisposition, right? Sort of things like genetics play a role. A lot of the Australians I know, uh, are, are quite jolly and exuberant relative to, to a lot of other folks. But also, yeah, like London Town is business town. New York City is like, don't you even freaking think about making small talk with me and stuff. So it's like. You have like an awareness that your kind of nature, which is like, I'm gonna smile, I'm gonna be friendly, and I can kind of, not necessarily like manipulate in, in like a weird way, but, but you wanna help shape the vibe, right?
Gemma O’Brien: [35:37] Yes. It's funny that you said like, not to try and manipulate. 'cause I think that's like such a key thing because I think what I, I didn't even realize, um, the difference until I was placed in, you know, for a year in London. And also then like, I think the experience of being stressed yourself, like I noticed how much that shifted
Brad Frost: [35:59] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [35:59] that it would take. But what I realized is that even if I. Like, even if I was like, oh, that's right. I, I, this is the thing I used to do like when I, when I first arrived. And then as soon as you bring it, it, it comes back at, at you and it can literally just be like, how's your day been? Um, and
Brad Frost: [36:21] you mean it. And you and you mean it.
Gemma O’Brien: [36:23] wanna
Brad Frost: [36:24] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [36:24] know?
Brad Frost: [36:25] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [36:26] it's, it's interesting though, but it's very hard to not feel like a, um, like I used to be very optimistic, but without realizing that it was a superpower. Like I think I was quite naive. And I think as I've gotten older and I've like had more difficult situations and experienced more, like more life, I've realized that like if you are optimistic, it can sometimes actually take a lot of energy to be optimistic, but that it's a hundred percent always worth it. yeah, it shouldn't be underrated. Is, is what I think.
Brad Frost: [36:59] you're speaking my language. And that was like, I think really like the, the impetus of, of kind of putting this show together is exploring all of that because it's like to carry the attitude that you carry. All you need to do is just, you know, flick on the news and, do we have any right to be thinking about or asking how your day's been or given a smile or carrying yourself. In that way, or painting beautiful words that say things like joy how dare you do? Uh, could you, could you, could you speak about that?
Gemma O’Brien: [37:42] Are you, are you saying like Do you think that people question like being happy or positive or optimistic in the state of, of the world? Is that what you mean?
Brad Frost: [37:51] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [37:51] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [37:51] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [37:52] dare. Yeah. Look, I would say that like I've felt that more than ever, like in the last, I'd say probably shift that people have noticed, like since the last 10 years where maybe
Brad Frost: [38:06] Mm-hmm.
Gemma O’Brien: [38:06] necessarily worse, but we can see everything all the time. So you can feel things you can't like deny, like the struggles, the complexities, like it's all there.
Brad Frost: [38:18] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [38:19] I definitely went through a period probably around like 2020 where I was like, I'm not allowed to joy in my life because that's unfair. Um, and. You know, I didn't, didn't know how to process all of those feelings and I didn't. But then I was also like, can I help? What can I do? You know, there's limits to your ability. You can't,
Brad Frost: [38:46] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [38:47] all at once, helping everything. And it took a really long time for me to realize, like, all I can do is in my immediate environment and interactions, like the best energy that I can, like do the best job that I can encourage the people, like lift people up. Um, and I would say only now, and also, you know, look, have to disconnect sometimes from like, what, you know, looking at things because I know that it doesn't help.
Brad Frost: [39:23] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [39:24] and know that I can be my best self. Like I know the things that set me off, and I know that, you know, if I go into nature or if I draw and I do these, bring these things back, then I'm gonna be a better version of myself
Brad Frost: [39:38] yeah, yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [39:38] is gonna have a flow on effect. But
Brad Frost: [39:40] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [39:41] I mean, it's hard. I
Brad Frost: [39:43] Yes,
Gemma O’Brien: [39:44] highly complex.
Brad Frost: [39:46] yes. It, it, it, it really is. And, and it's like, that's been the thing that I've struggled with so much how can you be a caring, empathetic human being who, who really cares and is connected to people who are. You know, suffering and people are going through like, way worse than I can ever know. And to have that stuff sort of show up flashing in front of your face, uh, often without your, your permission or a heads up ahead of time.
Gemma O’Brien: [40:18] Yes,
Brad Frost: [40:19] And, and, yeah. And then kind of go back and, and like, oh yeah, like, let's, you know, let's, let's do happy, joyful, like lighthearted things. And it's, and it's like, so, so there really is this, this tension too. It's like, because it's like, it, it just goes without saying. It's like, of course you care about other people or you care about this stuff. But at the, but at the same time, like there, there really is this, like, well-intended thing that I've heard in said in various ways, which is basically like, if you're not speaking. About this then you're, you're part of the problem. I understand the sentiment and it's I think coming from often a very good place, but it's also like it isn't feasible it's not realistic. No. It it's actually counterproductive. And I, and I think that the thing that you came to the realization of feels right, which is you have no choice but to like, kind of emanate what you can
Gemma O’Brien: [41:18] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [41:19] into the world. There's some type of like interpretation. I think that has to happen to basically sort of receive outside input, especially hard outside input and go, what can I do about this, if anything?
Gemma O’Brien: [41:34] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [41:35] What can I do about this from where I'm at in this moment in time, it's so hard 'cause the, the, the feelings don't go away. And especially whenever you have to, for very, very good reasons. Like you said, it's like step away from really hard things because you're like, you know that that's going to do nothing but like, kind of ruin you
Gemma O’Brien: [41:59] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [42:00] and like,
Gemma O’Brien: [42:00] yeah,
Brad Frost: [42:01] you from Yeah, from showing up. So.
Gemma O’Brien: [42:04] Well I think that your example is really good because it's like realize like what are your strengths? Like everyone has like different superpowers and like things that they or have years of experience in or, can apply that. And I think then the other thing is that I remember like you'd often hear about like having gratitude, like for if you can't do something, you have gratitude for what you have and then you enjoy it. That can be really hard, like to like, it's e, so many of these things are like easier said as
Brad Frost: [42:36] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [42:36] but like you put into practice, But you know, if you do notice that you've got this thing, or if you do a presentation and someone comes up to you at the end and says like, Hey, like that story or that thing that you showed me, like really helps, like all of these little things can be enough to be like, all right, this is like, know, this is a, this is a positive force, but you
Brad Frost: [42:59] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [43:00] it's a daily thing, and it's like everything on a case by case basis
Brad Frost: [43:04] Yeah. so it's like you really do need to, to go into your gut and, and sort of pull that stuff out and, and you're doing the, I think the world a service by Acting on your intuition and like, and then communicating that through, through your work.
Gemma O’Brien: [43:24] Oh,
Brad Frost: [43:25] And like, I mean like, do you, do you feel that, like, do you, do you feel like that's.
Gemma O’Brien: [43:30] You know what? I think that's why I continue to do like talks and workshops and things where I'm engaged with people face to face, because a lot of the time spent is alone in the studio or working, you know, in like with people digitally and like, I'm such a you, you know, in the same way that you talk about the feeling that you get when you're in a concert, like. I get so much more from like face-to-face human interaction. Um, or even like, I think one thing was with the calligraphy that I realized was after this block of time where I was like, oh my God. Like what am I doing? Like what is my life like? Should I be doing these commercial jobs like artists, like the world is horrible. Like what matter? All of these, this spiraling.
Brad Frost: [44:15] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [44:15] And then I went and did a calligraphy thing and I noticed people's response, or if I wrote someone's name and I thought, oh, this comes so naturally to me because I did it for 10 years and I taught workshops in it. This is very little effort with very big impact. And like, okay, I just have to like keep on leaning towards those things that I've built over time. That can be a positive force. And just keep on doing that. And I think that, but I have to sometimes remind myself that like, 'cause you know, you probably know this, like sometimes doing workshops and these like talks, it can be a big energy output
Brad Frost: [44:52] sure.
Gemma O’Brien: [44:53] exhausted afterwards,
Brad Frost: [44:54] Oh yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [44:54] almost always, um, worth it. Like
Brad Frost: [44:58] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [44:58] then re you know, reflect and Yeah, just I think the more that people can have positive face-to-face human interactions, like is it's a good thing. Um, yes.
Brad Frost: [45:09] What did, what did you know it wouldn't, you know it, but I think, I think you're onto something there and, and I. It almost sounds like maybe this year being the exception, but like you kind of have this like rhythm where you're sort of like head down producing your, your, your sort of in your own mind, in your own body, in your own space, and then you kind like come up for air and like kind of go out into the world, check in and then sort of oscillate back in.
Gemma O’Brien: [45:37] Yeah, definitely. And I need both because like if I don't have that isolated like deep time to like squirrel down all these parts of like my interests or these new ideas, then I, I can't do the other thing, which, you know, I need, I need both.
Brad Frost: [45:55] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [45:56] And, um, you know, it's funny though because when I think back to when I, like began in London and I started the Neuroaesthetics and I had like, I had so much energy, I was like, oh, I'm gonna instantly start like a neuroscience, like TV show. Like I was, so, I did not know the depth, but I'm so glad that it was in many ways beyond me because it was very humbling. Like, I'm like, this is what it would feel like if someone started to draw, tried to draw.
Brad Frost: [46:22] Yes,
Gemma O’Brien: [46:22] was a, a statistics, like a mathematics
Brad Frost: [46:26] yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [46:27] it would be extremely uncomfortable. It's very like, especially when you have recognition in one field, it's
Brad Frost: [46:33] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [46:34] I had to get over
Brad Frost: [46:35] I,
Gemma O’Brien: [46:35] even going back to do observational drawing. Like during COVID, even as an illustrator and artist, I went to a life drawing class and I didn't want to draw in front of everybody because I sucked so much and I just had to like get through that. And they're, all of those feelings are like very good things to experience and even though they might seem small compared to the things that are happening in the world, they're like, it's good to to feel it all. And it
Brad Frost: [47:03] But
Gemma O’Brien: [47:04] you
Brad Frost: [47:04] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [47:04] other people more.
Brad Frost: [47:05] No, that's, that's great. And I think that that's like really something for literally anyone is like, it is that, that willingness to kind of endure that discomfort and that that beginner's mind and, and learning the ropes and all of that stuff. Especially when you know, mastery or you, you have experience in something else. It's like, I know how to tie my shoes. So it's like, you know, that's, that's fine. But like this brand new thing, a lot of times like that's, that's oil and water for people where they get like repelled by it. 'cause they, they don't want to go near that discomfort. But it sounds like you're, you're like, if, like you force yourself within reason, let's say to, to sort of like power through and get to the other side, then there's, there's some good stuff to be had.
Gemma O’Brien: [48:00] And I think that there was like this part when I was in my studio, like doing that like five year almost like artists in residence in my own studio space. thing I did realize, there was a lot of weaknesses that you get from working in isolation where you don't get to collaborate or like new technologies that had come along. Like, you know, I was playing with things, but I could sense that know, the things that you might get in a work environment or when you are interacting with people, not when you're an artist cooped up and you, I could feel like if I don't take the leap and just like put myself in an environment where I might. be learning science, but I also might need to learn this new technology that everyone's using to communicate with that. If I just stay isolated, I'm going to lose sense of like being connected.
Brad Frost: [48:49] Yeah. Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [48:49] was, it wasn't just learning the content, it was so many other, other things that I think is gonna continue to happen. Like things change so quickly that I'm like, all right, buckle up, baby.
Brad Frost: [49:01] Yeah. I think that, that's really fascinating. 'cause it really does a lot of times take other people and a little bit of social pressure is healthy. Right? It's like it's, there's like sort of solo work and it sounds like, you know, you, you're sort of explaining that, that dynamic I think very well. And I love that that was like the, the focus where, where it really is this like, here's me, here's my gut, here's my mind, here's like my artistic output. And like if I am like sequestering myself away. Of course we, we'll carry our influences with us wherever we go and stuff, but, but like, what, what happens whenever it's like, it's me and my space and a blank canvas or whatever, like what happens? Freaking amazing. Like
Gemma O’Brien: [49:51] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [49:52] to say, wanna talk about gratitude? Holy crap. That's, that's pretty freaking amazing. So, so I'm like so happy that you have like, had that experience for so long those are like some serious, like life goals I think for, for a whole lot of people is like, yeah, I would love to just like be in my space listening to myself and my intuition. It's amazing. It's beautiful,
Gemma O’Brien: [50:17] yeah, it, it's the, then when you come to interact with, with the world, like I. I think the myth of the artist and the creative, like has always been about like, well, for a long time was about like this individual like insight and like, you
Brad Frost: [50:34] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [50:35] this, I've gotta leave and go do this thing. I think even in Rick Rubin's book, the Creative Act, he talks about like, if you're with someone at the dinner table, like, and they, they need to leave. And I fully respect that. Like, 'cause I know the feeling as a creative, like, I need, I'm on deadline, or your wife cooping up in the hotel, like this is, I need to get it done.
Brad Frost: [50:54] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [50:54] at the end of the day, like we're all here together and to collaborate on things can often lead to beautiful, um, more beautiful outcomes than working alone. And in order to do that,
Brad Frost: [51:07] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [51:07] of have to
Brad Frost: [51:08] I,
Gemma O’Brien: [51:08] to the table and like there is compromise or there is like. Uh, the complexities of dealing with other humans or other tools, like
Brad Frost: [51:17] yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [51:18] And I think for a long time I was, I had a bit of an ego and I didn't like to do that.
Brad Frost: [51:24] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [51:24] Um, but yeah, now I can now I see over time, like, know, much more you can get from being able to go and collaborate and be in different environments or like, even creatively finding ways to meet in the middle. Like sometimes that can lead to better outcomes than if you're just left by yourself.
Brad Frost: [51:46] it's like you need, you need other people to help pull you or rip you out of your, your comfort zone.
Gemma O’Brien: [51:54] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [51:55] I'm also interested in like kind of like getting over like the, the ego part. 'cause I do think that that's like something, like a lot of people, when you spend so much time getting good at something, right? It, it can be, it's not even necessarily like, like an ego thing. Like, look at me, I'm hot shit. Like, everybody else sucks. But it's like I know what I can do and what I, and, and I have like a, a belief in my abilities and, and that you used the word compromise earlier. And to compromise that vision can feel. A little like threatening or uncomfortable or something, but like, do you, did you like, like how did you, like what's been like your journey into the world of like creative collaboration and getting more comfortable with that, with that discomfort of Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [52:48] there was like. was always present because I've always worked like as a commercial artist and then more as an artist,
Brad Frost: [52:56] mm-hmm.
Gemma O’Brien: [52:57] was always present. Um, I think I only became more aware of it, like as I gained more success. And I think when I got more successful and there were more. Inquiries, like, because I didn't know how to deal with growth. Like I, I wasn't a big studio. I think in the stress of that, that was when I started to realize I either like, shut down or don't reply or don't communicate because that's the way I get, this is how I'm gonna get it done.
Brad Frost: [53:28] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [53:29] that in order to be
Brad Frost: [53:31] I.
Gemma O’Brien: [53:31] like operate at that level, you need, like, I needed to be able to have an assistant who I could like
Brad Frost: [53:36] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [53:37] and like, and work with and like trying to find the right person to do that. Or even like working on a client job where there might be an art director with a vision and back in the day if I got feedback, I would take it like very personally or I would like be like, they're wrong. And I think, like now I definitely realize, well one, People can help take, steer the work in different directions. I learn new skills. My repertoire of work would go like in, completely new ways that I would never have imagined if I
Brad Frost: [54:13] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [54:13] left to myself, you know? Or even with tools, like I was resistant to use the iPad. And then when I finally did, I was
Brad Frost: [54:21] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [54:21] use color and I was only using black and white before. Like, there's so many different ways. Um, but I think the hardest one is actually when you do collaborate, communicating, um, both creatively, like how to communicate, like what needs to happen, and then also like with like, with kindness and grace under pressure and like that like whole dynamic. but
Brad Frost: [54:48] Y
Gemma O’Brien: [54:48] you get it right, it's amazing. But
Brad Frost: [54:50] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [54:51] it, it takes time to figure that out.
Brad Frost: [54:54] Yeah. It's, it, it, those are, it's like their muscles. Muscles to build and like I've, I've learned in my own Yeah. Evolution of, of delegating and getting more comfortable with that, that it's like. Usually whatever, whatever the person I'm saying to do something, go take care of this. And it comes back a little like lackluster. It's always my fault. So I'm like, I'm like, all right, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta work harder. And, and 'cause a lot of it is, is like, yeah, it's like this stuff, it's, it is, it's that beginner's mind. It's that like what you're just experiencing in this other realm. Like a lot of times, like when you're like bringing in somebody cold into this like world that you've been practicing for literal decades, it's like, well of course they're not going to like be able to like read my mind, but like, I, so yeah. It's, it's a freaking skill. It's a skillset it's like, we got these Jira tickets to work through, and it's like, it's so incredibly depressing, but it's like, as time goes on, I'm like, I'm, I'm increasingly convinced that it really is the stuff you talk about in, in the small talk or like these other like dimensions of people's lives that it's like, that's, that's what, that's their sauce, right? Like that's what they're bringing to the collaboration. Right.
Gemma O’Brien: [56:17] Oh, that's interesting. I, I, I guess like, because it's such a different industry, like when, I think often some of the collaborations I'm doing like with people physically painting, like, you have this time, like when you start painting, where you can literally just talk. And so it's like embedded into the process. But that's very different from like, we need to get this done by this time. Like, and it's like almost like knowing when to shift and like, when do you have the time to like
Brad Frost: [56:41] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [56:42] And also then like having the boundaries of like, cause sometimes you might need to just get to work. You
Brad Frost: [56:48] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [56:49] And sometimes, like it's knowing when it's the right time for all of the things, you know,
Brad Frost: [56:55] I think that there's, there's something interesting there and I'd be really curious to get your take on it, could you like take me through like going from like idea to. You're doing the work in earnest, so like everything that leads up to, to you being either, let's say it's like an onsite thing,
Gemma O’Brien: [57:11] I mean, I think using the, like real life painting ones are a good example because there are so many non-creative steps in the process that. Necessary to pull it off. But like, you know, in a dream scenario, the first stage is always like creative, like looking at the space, whether it's like physical. I always love to like, actually, if I can go there, that's like number one. If I
Brad Frost: [57:37] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [57:38] there like this, the project I did for the, it was like Tiffany and CO in Shanghai, it was a really tight turnaround. They hadn't even finished building the space and they like sent like architectural plans and like
Brad Frost: [57:49] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [57:50] And so the first bit is like, it's inspiration and it's designing, but it's also like designing with all that in mind. And then it's like quickly shifting into like, alright, how do we access this? Like, are we gonna have to order, like is it gonna be SS lifts? Is it
Brad Frost: [58:05] yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [58:05] ground? Is
Brad Frost: [58:06] yeah, yeah, yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [58:07] know, what are the local rules? And then sometimes it's like, well the V, like there's a lot of admin type stuff. Assembling the team of painters, finding the paint. Um, and to be honest, I love these projects because of the diversity of the, the things that you have to prepare if there's enough time. so that then when you get there, like the painting part is, is quite enjoyable, but
Brad Frost: [58:30] Yes,
Gemma O’Brien: [58:31] up is, it's like almost putting on a show, like a performance of sorts.
Brad Frost: [58:37] I love that. I love that because they, there tends to be, especially like, you know, for something that's so, like visual whatever, Instagram sort of feeds and stuff, like, that's like the very like unglamorous kind of part to it where there's like, there's usually like way more databases and way more spreadsheets than people would, would think for, for, for stuff like that. Uh, that is part of the creative process. 'cause you're understanding, right? Like you, you are like getting oriented with a space, you're getting oriented with the physics, with the location, with the culture around it, with who's involved. Like, like all of that stuff is like influencing and informing the actual work. That is like fundamentally different than if like you were to just fly in, someone hands you a brush and just kind of, okay, go do your thing.
Gemma O’Brien: [59:31] go. Yeah. I mean, people used to say that when I would sometimes like share videos on Instagram, like, oh, do you just like literally go there and like begin and, and it's like, no. But know, there is there is an art to like, you know, calling the, the sizzle lift people. Like, I
Brad Frost: [59:48] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [59:48] love that because it's all relationships as well. It's
Brad Frost: [59:51] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [59:51] need a giant ladder tomorrow. Like, but
Brad Frost: [59:54] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [59:55] Like it's, and like I do love all of that side of it. Um, but it's very different thing to when I first started and it was literally like, I'm in a room, paint it like,
Brad Frost: [1:00:06] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:00:06] it, it was smaller scale. And I think that if I didn't have those early experiences of the freedom of like smaller walls that didn't require teams, then. It would be harder to explain it because, you know, I've had the time to test the paints or to know this
Brad Frost: [1:00:26] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:00:27] three coats. Like it's all of those things together and like I'm, that's why I think I'm so ready to go back into that now after this hiatus because I'm like, oh, like, it's just, it's, it's a full body experience.
Brad Frost: [1:00:43] yeah. You gotta, you gotta like, let it rip you. I am so excited for you to just like, have at it. 'cause it's like, yeah, it's like the spreadsheets be damned. Like you, you gotta just like get in there and
Gemma O’Brien: [1:00:55] yeah.
Brad Frost: [1:00:56] let it all out.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:00:57] especially like, you know, researching like the area of the research being flow state, like as much as I found it really intriguing and like could get deep into these studies, there was this certain point where it's like. If you are, you are reading an article about eating ice cream, and then you're like, all right, I just wanna eat the fucking ice cream.
Brad Frost: [1:01:17] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:01:17] that's over this dessert.
Brad Frost: [1:01:18] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:01:19] eat it now. I'm, you know, so it's doing the thing
Brad Frost: [1:01:23] yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:01:23] the experience of it is, is sometimes better than analyzing or thinking about it. So,
Brad Frost: [1:01:30] yeah. That, that's, that's great. it's speculation, but do you feel like after reading about ice cream for so long, do you think that it's going to be like pretty natural to find yourself in that flow state? Or do you feel like you might need like a transition time to sort of build up.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:01:50] it's definitely gonna take time. I, I, I know it is, and not necessarily because of the research, but just because of knowing that when you stop doing something, it just takes, you know, it takes a little bit. But I, I think knowing that is reassuring.
Brad Frost: [1:02:04] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:02:04] There are a few things that I've read that have made me like, reflect on my practice from beforehand, um, that you could like kind of set up the conditions to best thrive, you know, and I think I do have more knowledge now to be able to do that. And, um, it's backed by science, so,
Brad Frost: [1:02:26] There we go. Could you share that? 'cause like, I, I think in general it's like cultivating flow. Great idea.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:02:34] Yeah.
Brad Frost: [1:02:34] listening to this, finding ways to do that is like one of like the best things you could do. What are your nuggets of wisdom there?
Gemma O’Brien: [1:02:43] Well the thing is like, I think the biggest one that people think about in one of the facets is attention. So like, flow is made up of like this, like attention. And I think that that's the thing that feels most under threat for most people. Like
Brad Frost: [1:02:57] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:02:57] in our current situation with so many distractions.
Brad Frost: [1:03:00] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:03:01] I think that I got to a point when I was in my studio where I had all these systems in place, routines to facilitate that or like, I would like not have my phone on or I'd know, you know, all of these different things that you can do,
Brad Frost: [1:03:13] Mm-hmm.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:03:14] then you kind of like, I kind of like adapt to them and like, and then I need a new level. I've like outsmarted myself and or you know, you just need, I think it's that constantly having to change it. Or even like, one of the biggest ones with flow is challenge, skill. Balance. If you reach a new skill level where the thing that you used to find difficult now becomes really easy and you need challenge or growth to get back to that. 'cause it's, it's not an equal balance of your skills and the task, but it's, you experience flow when you go a little bit above and
Brad Frost: [1:03:48] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:03:48] So like, if you're
Brad Frost: [1:03:49] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:03:49] improvisation, it's like are, you know, the, the base thing that you're playing, but then you, like, you kind of let go. It's like this holding on and letting go at the same time or
Brad Frost: [1:03:59] Mm-hmm.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:04:00] yourself like, oh, I didn't actually think that I could do that, and I did. And then if that's sustained, that's like, there was this really interesting article that described flow as like a cascade of learning. And so it's
Brad Frost: [1:04:13] Ooh.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:04:13] in this experience where you are like actually going to the next level. That's you're so engaged in it. And I'm like, I love that so much because it's about like growth. And I think that's the difference between, you know, you could be fully immersed in something scrolling on your phone, and some people would describe that as like a flow because you are fully absorbed.
Brad Frost: [1:04:38] Yep.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:04:38] very different from being very engaged, like where you're engaged and you are, you are focused and attention, but you're also, it's a growth experience. And I
Brad Frost: [1:04:50] yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:04:51] that is like super interesting and I'm curious to see like, what is that gonna look like my, in my practice of like painting and knowing that sometimes it begins with resistance and it's only if you
Brad Frost: [1:05:04] yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:05:05] get through that tough bit that you can experience that. And some days you won't. So I'm, I'm ex I'm curious to see it in action.
Brad Frost: [1:05:13] That's I, I love that. I love that and that, I think that that kind of comes back to what you were saying earlier about that, that just kind of like. The, the powering through. And I think that that might be like the, the lesson like for, for anybody, especially anybody that's like, I, I want to like cultivate more creativity in my life. I want to like more time with my hands on some clay or, or drawing that first bit is going to be hard, but if you're able to sort of, science backed,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:05:44] Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Brad Frost: [1:05:45] it's like, it's like, ah, yeah, that's, this is actually part of it. And to like treat that as growth rather than like a I can't do this, I might as well just put this down. helping people poke through and get to that other side where they, it's like all of that was just noise. It was just straight up noise. And that like first contact. Yep. You're gonna flub some notes or you're gonna, you're not gonna get it right. 'cause it takes a little time to sort of get into like the groove of things.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:06:15] I think that's it. It's, it's true. And it could also be like on a different day, like maybe one day you're like, oh, I'm gonna retreat. And then the next day you're like, all right, I'm gonna go again. And it's just the, like, it's just the going again,
Brad Frost: [1:06:29] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:06:30] in whatever it could be anything.
Brad Frost: [1:06:32] so are there some like quick hit. Uh, flow state, like best practices? Like, like a,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:06:38] So what the, the flow scale that I was using in the study basically has like the three pillars, which are, um, like intrinsic rewards. So it has to be something that you want to be doing, um, effortless control, which is that feeling of like, you know what you are doing, but it's like holding on and letting go is
Brad Frost: [1:06:58] Mm-hmm.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:06:58] that sweet spot, and absorption. But within that, like in the lead up, it is about like choosing an activity one that you wanna do something that you have a skill set in or a willing to like set that challenge, skill. Balance. Um, but I do think that it's different for everybody 'cause obviously
Brad Frost: [1:07:16] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:07:17] is intrinsically motivating to you and to someone else are gonna be completely different. So there's like that element of like self-awareness and
Brad Frost: [1:07:25] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:07:26] and, um. Having a goal is like a really, uh, is, is something to work towards. Even if in the process you forget that goal, like they often talk about an artist like working towards an exhibition. Like when you're painting, you're not necessarily thinking about the exhibition, but the fact that you have like a time, like a thing that you're working towards.
Brad Frost: [1:07:46] I think that there's, there's a lot that that checks out there, especially around like, yeah, ain't nothing like a deadline. That is for sure. I think that you're, you're spot on with like the self-awareness and the intrinsic part and going, I want to be able to do this. Is a very interesting one because I think a lot of people will try to put themselves into those situations for those more extrinsic reasons. I wanna learn how to play the guitar to, to get the girl or whatever, and it's like,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:21] you know what, you know what? Like I, I, so there's lots of also studies that show that you can still experience flow if you are ex extrinsically rewarded. Like people experience it at work, even if they don't really wanna be doing their job, then they get
Brad Frost: [1:08:34] sure,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:34] they're like, ah. if you are learning guitar to get the girl, I think that's a totally natural thing. And
Brad Frost: [1:08:40] sure,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:40] like, you
Brad Frost: [1:08:41] sure.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:42] What does the girl represent? You know, it's
Brad Frost: [1:08:44] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:45] that you, something that you desire, that you wanna,
Brad Frost: [1:08:48] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:48] you wanna be impressive or you wanna showcase your skill and that
Brad Frost: [1:08:52] Yes.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:08:52] even if that is the goal, like you, that might be enough to like It's another goal, like beyond the actual,
Brad Frost: [1:09:01] Yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:09:01] know, virtuoso playing. Like it's, and it's a real one.
Brad Frost: [1:09:06] yeah. it, it does all sort of like come back to, I feel like almost like the feedback loop of like the external world and then sort of pointing it back inwards to go, okay, well what does that say about me if I'm the, the kind of person that wants to learn guitar to, to get,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:09:22] Yeah. I think, I mean, we
Brad Frost: [1:09:24] that's funny.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:09:25] other episode on like, the philosophy of like intrinsic versus extrinsic reward, I think all things are valid.
Brad Frost: [1:09:33] Uh, and that's why, that's why I like sort of digging into, and that's and why the name of this podcast is called Wake Up Excited is because like, I find that question to be very interesting because it, it picks at, I think the, the pulse of, of somebody like, like what's exciting is different than like, what's new? 'cause it's what's new is, well, we're just, you know, another day of. Going through the routine. Right. But it's like, if it's exciting, it's like that, that's kind of picking at that, like what, what is personally fascinating to, to, to you in, in this moment in time. And like, I have, I've, I've had many conversations just with those random people walking through life, you know, people at the grocery store and so on. And it's like, you could see that I've like really hit 'em with a ton of bricks.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:10:27] yeah. Yeah.
Brad Frost: [1:10:27] if
Gemma O’Brien: [1:10:28] Sometimes people like never get asked a deep question, and I think if they do, it can both take them by surprise, but also like be rewarding because it
Brad Frost: [1:10:39] yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:10:41] think of,
Brad Frost: [1:10:42] yeah,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:10:43] to them or,
Brad Frost: [1:10:44] this has been great. This has been awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for this.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:10:49] I actually, I actually had a memory, like after we spoke and you mentioned your podcast and oh, maybe it was the night when I was going back to study in my room and you guys were having a drink after the show and you said like, you're going subterranean or some something like this. And it came to me the next day when I was running your voice and I was like, yeah, he gets it. He gets it.
Brad Frost: [1:11:15] I mean like good, good on you for, for doing it. Seriously. Like that's like to put yourself out there like that, to sort of get so uncomfortable, to like dig into a world of statistics and a lot of like different things. Like I, I have no doubt in my mind that that's going to just, like, this experience is going to like, serve you in so many different ways. So I like, I. I truly am. I'm like really excited to see what you kind of hatch up as a result of it, because I think that there's, you, you found some, a mountain of material probably to, to, to explore. but thank you so much for, for taking the time. I have one more question for you, and we talked a little bit about, you know, music and stuff like that, but, um, one,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:12:06] yes.
Brad Frost: [1:12:07] what's music's role in your creative process? Like,
Gemma O’Brien: [1:12:11] music is definitely a part of the equation. Like one way my mom's actually a cello and piano teacher, and I played cello, like all through high school and was in like the Queensland Youth Orchestra. So I love music and I love playing. And actually like when I had my studio residency, I had my cello there and would like float around like from painting to having cello again. And I, that's one thing I've missed being in London is, is not having that.
Brad Frost: [1:12:38] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:12:39] um, but in terms of actually like listening to music, it's, it. It changes. Like, it's definitely like a mood. Like I have these playlists called like Ultra and it went, came from my ultra running days. But like ultra artists or like Ultra London or ultra recovery I used to use them very specifically, like if I needed high energy, I had
Brad Frost: [1:12:59] Yeah.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:13:00] or if I needed to cool down, like I was using it like as a tool and now it's kind of just seamlessly gone into the background. Um, where some it, I can't listen to like podcasts if I need to concentrate. So if it's a create part of the phase, but once I'm painting, almost like not requiring that part of my brain, I will listen to like audio books. I always listen to like cello or piano music before I go to bed. Running playlists. I love disco music. I really love pop music. It took me a while to accept that I loved pop music. Like I used to be like, no, I'm like, too cool for pop music. I'm like, no. I love, like, I love pop music. I love the new Olivia d album. And I'm like, I love the sassiness of like Sabrina Carpenters. Like I just,
Brad Frost: [1:13:48] Beautiful.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:13:48] to be in it.
Brad Frost: [1:13:50] Uh, that's great. That's, I I think that that's like, acceptance of pop music is something I think, I think that, yeah, we all we're like finally like shedding our, like the teenager we're all like, too cool for, for whatever, and then you just kind of go, oh no, there's a reason. Why this is played everywhere. This is actually very, this is actually very, very good.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:14:12] Yes. Yeah. I like, I like it
Brad Frost: [1:14:15] do you have a song? Maybe we'll, we'll stick there. Is there, is there a pop song that I should, uh, put on the, podcast playlist
Gemma O’Brien: [1:14:22] It's from the new Olivia Dean album that I was like playing on repeat. It's her new album is like, it's just a romantic. just love it. I'm, I think it was, maybe it was, man, I Need, you
Brad Frost: [1:14:35] Okay.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:14:36] All Girl From Imp Girl from Eima is is also one of my faves
Brad Frost: [1:14:40] Okay.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:14:41] so corny, but like if I'm on holidays and walking down the street and it's sunny. Anyway,
Brad Frost: [1:14:50] Amazing. Amazing. there's a reason why that one stood the test of time, right? Like there, these are, these are like these hooks, right? Uh, there's like
Gemma O’Brien: [1:14:59] Yes.
Brad Frost: [1:15:00] There's a reason why, why they are where they are.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:15:04] Yeah,
Brad Frost: [1:15:05] That's amazing. Amazing. well thank you so much for this. This has been an absolute joy for me. So, so thank you for, being on the show. And, and I guess one last thing is like, where can people find out about you? Follow along for the ride.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:15:20] Well, gem O'Brien dot com uh, is my website, or Mrs. Eves 1 0 1 is my Instagram and where else am I? LinkedIn or Strava, but probably just gem O'Brien dot com. You can go there and find all the spots.
Brad Frost: [1:15:35] Beautiful. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to, to chat. Good luck with, uh, your last smile of, of getting through over the finish line, so
Gemma O’Brien: [1:15:45] And send my good energy to Melissa and to your mom.
Brad Frost: [1:15:49] Yeah, will do. All right. Take care. Thank you.
Gemma O’Brien: [1:15:55] Bye.