Designing a Life That Excites You with Christine Vallaure

Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up Excited! a podcast about living an exuberant, creative, and fulfilling life. I'm Brad Frost, and in this episode I'm gonna be talking with Christine Vallaure. Christine is a designer, speaker and a founder of Moon Learning, an online learning platform for UI and product design. She's also the author of the book Solo, A Practical Guide to Building and Running a Digital Product Company as a Company of One. I first met Christine at a conference and immediately felt like I knew her forever. Christine is a rare breed, highly ambitious, yet also really grounded, human, and humble. As you'll find out, she cares a lot about work, but also a lot about life in equal measure, and her love for her family is really, really inspiring. In our conversation. we talk about how a good day is one that achieves a balance. We talk about agency autonomy and matching your personal style to the work and activities you pursue. We talk about the difference between ambition and competition. We talk about finding fulfillment in the work itself rather than the promise of future goals, and we talk about finding your niche and finding your people. Before we get into the episode, I'd love to remind you that wake up excited is a totally self-funded affair. So if you want to support me, support the show, support my family, and support my other work, I'd love it if you checked out our online courses. We have online courses about digital design, development and design systems. Right now we're creating a super exciting online course called AI in Design Systems, where we detail how to use the sturdy infrastructure of a design system in conjunction with the generative powers of AI in order to make great digital products. You could check out our online courses at bradfrost.com/courses and you could use the code. Wake up. Excited to get 15% off. All right, without any further ado, here's my conversation with Christine Vallaure. hello, Christine. I'm so excited you are here. And, uh, let's just dig right in. What have you been waking up excited about recently?

Christine Vallaure: it is actually quite boring because it's, it is not like a big event or something. It's usually like if my day flows, if I manage to put everything in my day that I enjoy. So it's like, I like doing my sports. I like seeing my friends. I like hanging with my kids with my partner and do my work. And, uh, yeah, if that works, that's usually, that's usually when I'm like best. But it's a tricky one, huh? It's not that Easys.

Brad Frost: Yeah. just like, if there's a day that almost sounds like has this really healthy balance, you're like, heck yeah.

Christine Vallaure: Yeah, I think it just feels, it's really nice because then you have like everything, you know, it's when things go sideways, it's when I've been working too much or when I've only been with the kids or when I've, um, I'm not sure if only socializing if that, you know, maybe it's good.

Brad Frost: have you always had that has it taken long periods of being too lopsided in one area in order for you to, to arrive

Christine Vallaure: Yeah, I mean, totally, because I think it's like with everyone, no, you, you, you study what you wanna do. So I studied design and then you go, I worked in like agencies and stuff, it was, I just felt really weird. I felt like there's something wrong with me because everybody else, it seemed so natural for them to turn up at nine o'clock and to do all that work and then to leave and. like I didn't mind doing the work, but I was like, if I just could do it in my own time and structure it and I didn't know, it's just, it's, I had this like urge to just, to just do it my way and it took a long time now until, because you have to obviously get the experience and stuff. And then I went freelance and that was already better because I could like take client work, but you're still in an office, you're still on someone else's time schedule and planning. And then when it really clicked for me is when I started like building my own product and then I had this freedom and then suddenly I could just fit everything in and puzzle it all together the way I want it without feeling guilty, you know?

Brad Frost: you, you're describing those forces of, the systems and the, the workplaces and the, aspects of life where we don't have that full agency or autonomy to design life in the way that we would prefer. And I feel like that's Overwhelming majority of of people have to, live. in those sort of work world is we're dealing with these things that it's like, yeah, somebody else has created the game board that I am now playing in.

Christine Vallaure: I mean, I think it's two sides. No, I mean, the thing I, I also have, um, I know a lot of people that really enjoy it because it also means that you don't have to worry about it. You get your paycheck, you are told when to be where, clear responsibilities and, and you can also, like when you go home, you go home, a lot of time people to take their computer. So it's also really nice. and I think most people actually really enjoy that. And I understand this joy of leaving a computer and going home. It just doesn't work for me. I just, I don't even wanna leave my computer. I really like having my computer, like taking my computer on holidays, on the weekend. I also enjoy doing the week like. go for a run. If I wanna go, I go. There's this really funny thing that on, on LinkedIn, someone put like, with remote work, and then they showed the calendar, the shared calendar, and they saw that one of the employees, I think put a hairdresser appointment at 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock. It went like viral. No. And it was like, how, that's why remote work doesn't work because people abuse it. I'm thinking, why would I not go to the Why, why go there? Like, you know, nobody's there super fast. much easier than if I go in the evening. So for me it's like just, I don't know, it's, but I understand why it doesn't work, you know, in a team and it's more, more tricky. I really enjoy puzzling these days together. And also know, when I, I always go for a run or do some sports in the morning, and I really need that. that's the moment I think about what I'm gonna do. I get the best ideas. Like, I don't know, when people say, like, they get their ideas in the shower. I get, like, if I go for a run, that's when I, when I talks and stuff like that, I get this is where my brain works. but you can't do that. No. If you're freelancing, you can't be like, hi, I am just, I'm just gonna go for a little jo and then I'm just gonna be back on my computer. So, but really love that, that of, of scheduling it that way.

Brad Frost: that's amazing. And, and, and I think that there's something to pick at like the hairdresser during the day and, and that, that was certainly my experience. it's more these, these overwhelming senses of, of, of guilt and, and what work is and all of this stuff that I, I think is, reevaluated and al also dismantled. I think that there absolutely is a way to do. Good and productive team work where you're all kind of working on something and still go to the hairdresser. Like, that's, that's ridiculous. But, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hairdresser, dentist, and, and, but also just kind of having the flexibility of things, right. It, it really, I think, boils down to how do you design life, whether you're working on your own, like you're, like you're describing, or at an employer and, and doing that stuff to still be able to exert that agency and autonomy in some way. I think that, you can't offload that you can, you can't delegate those decisions. You have to claim that and protect that stuff for yourself wherever you're at, being self-employed and running your own thing doesn't necessarily shield you from that. So it sounds like you have kind of cracked the code in that you have you know, shed the feelings of, of guilt, around going for that run or doing things or visiting friends or spending time with your kids or your partner or, or do you still feel those pangs of, of guilt along the way?

Christine Vallaure: I, no, I definitely haven't cracked a code and it's really funny because, I, I got this message, this really nice message the other day from someone. And, uh, I don't know what she, she wrote me, it was about the book, about building solo and stuff, and, and she, she wrote something about it and then, I don't know what I wrote back, but like, something that didn't work or I was like, and she was like, oh, that's so great to hear that, that there was mistakes where you get like stuck in things. And I was like, of, of course I do like that, that, I mean, that's like my whole day. It's just that you just keep on going. And, um, that's what I told you. I mean, that's my ideal day. That's when everything, you know, when the stars align. and that's what I, what I aim for and I think that's just like sort of, well, I think the difference is that I noticed that this is what makes me feel good. And where I the best, where I am the best, in my job. I'm the best mom. I'm the best friend, I'm the best partner when I manage to put everything in a day. But that doesn't that I manage to do that all the time. funny when I say that's where I wanna do it, people are like, oh, that's so great. You, you manage. It's like, no, I, my aim. sometimes it works. But, uh, it was really funny 'cause I just came back from a conference and I did like sort of a row of conferences and I did the talk about entrepreneurship and all of that, you know, that feeling, that agency. it was like, so, you know, when you're on these talks, you're so excited. You have all this adrenaline, you meet all of these people at such a great time. and someone even asked like, how do you keep motivated? I'm like, no, I just really like the topic and it's true. And then I come home and I had this little thing. Well, I, I just couldn't get work done. I was just, it's like, you know, when people say like, writer's block, it was like that. I just sat on my desk, I just stared at my screen. I was like, what the hell is happening? Like, this hasn't happened to me before. And I just, I couldn't, I just, it just didn't work. And then you tried to figure out No. Like why is it what happened? What did, what am I doing wrong? No, it's the thing, and I don't know. I still dunno. So I was just the, it worked again, the moment I was just being a little gentle with myself and I was like, maybe I did too much or, and then I just tried to do like sort of the repe, I tried to do the repetitive, boring things like I do my taxes and I do sort of the, the stuff that, you know, where you don't have to, you don't need that high energy to get, not where you don't products. That's what I try Um, because it's just, yeah, you, you do get stuck. And it's also funny because what you say this, this feeling of, um. Guilt. Like I obviously then have it a lot, especially when you've just been on a stage telling people like, this is how you look, how inspiring all of that is. And then you're like, oh my God, if I'm sitting here and I'm getting nothing done. it's also part of it, you know, it's like,

Brad Frost: that's right. you were taken outta your routine, right? You're, you're going, traveling, speaking at these conferences. That's not the normal routine, right? Uh, so just that in and of itself, uh, throws a monkey wrench into the whole, machinery of, you working. But then I, I'd also be curious to know, it's like if you feel like you're in the middle of something, you've kind of done the work to kind of get the momentum going. But to kind of reget that momentum going right, requires a lot of force, get the, the bolder moving again. Or if you felt like it was like more like a, a proper block. Do you felt yourself pushing, but you just couldn't get the, the ball rolling.

Christine Vallaure: No, because it's very true what you say. I think there's two things. There is this pushing to get the ball rolling and I think people mistake that when they get started a lot of the time as a block. And it's not a block, it's what And I had this great teacher at uni, um, so I studied product design and we, when we did sketches, he was like, do 10 sketches and we're gonna throw them away until today I think of that, and I do that. 'cause he's like, then you're taking off the pressure and sketching and suddenly you're in the sketching. And it's also great because they, oh, this is such a good one. He is like, Nope, it goes in the bin. And I think that's a really good technique I can recommend to anyone having that block to really also get pen and paper and to really get going and to just sit there and be like, I'm just gonna design it and it's gonna be a bit shitty. I usually, sometimes I even start. copying a design that I really like. and then I get going because it's never gonna look like the design you start off with. that I think it's more that's technique and, and, and really just, just pushing yourself, you know, just not just telling yourself to just do this, the stuff. But the other thing and I had that for the first time where I really had a complete block where I was just like, I just could, I was like, and I still don't know what happened, but I think I was just, you know, it was config. It was so much adrenaline. I went from San Francisco to Berlin with a jet lag other, my culture, other culture, and as such a great time, so many people. And then, you know, it's also, then you also have a private life where, where you have stuff to sort out and, yeah, it was just like the first time. But it's, it's funny because you have this, you get this, reaps up. No, it's like sort of, you're a bit like, oh, I don't, I don't function. And you're like, what if I don't function? What if I. I don't, because that's like my superpower is like shipping stuff fast as one person. so you, you suddenly start doubting stuff that it, it's still there and you probably just need a break. But that's, I think it's more than the guilt thing because I don't have the guilt thing anymore because I don't look at the hours I work, I look at the output. Um, and I usually do a list for what I wanna do in a year, what I wanna do in the week. And so it's really nice and I keep it on notion, so I tick it off. And when I get a bit like, oh, I'm not getting anything done, I look back at a list and you see all the stuff you ticked off. So that's really nice. I think it's also, you know, a bit of a, a fright when you start doing different talks, different topics when they're more personal, when you're more like, I think it sort of creeps up in you. Like, can I, can I like, because I really don't like when people talk the talk and don't walk the walk. So it's a bit like you don't wanna be that person, so you're like, I have to ship. I have to ship. But that never helps.

Brad Frost: Yeah. what you said earlier about, it's like kind of the way out was, was kind of just being gentler with yourself and, and almost kind of trying less, uh, in order to, to kinda get go.

Christine Vallaure: I.

Brad Frost: It seems counterintuitive, but I do, I think, I think that a lot of people, we see it a lot, people put a lot of pressure on themselves. you know, whatever stories you are telling yourself, I'm, I'm the person who ships, I, you know, I'm the whatever. Uh, in a lot of people. Tell themselves stories, whether that's coming from inside themselves or they're, they're extrinsic motivators, uh, real and perceived, you know, oh, the boss is breathing down my neck, or I feel the, the boss is breathing down my neck even though they're not. Uh, I, I see a lot of those dynamics in at play, and that all leads to that false sense of I have to get this right. I have to get this. Perfect. of, I think what I'm hearing from you is that it's just like you work when it's time to work and when the, the stars have aligned for you to do that work and you're interested in it and you're like, oh, that, that's a good idea. Or I feel like I'm in the mood to dig into that. And then there's plenty of times where you're likely not. In the mood or you're, you're not enthusiastic about it and you need to go do something else that, that makes you happy in the meantime.

Christine Vallaure: just like, you also have to, so I'm a big fan of that, of, making your work day yourself and giving yourself that space, because I think if, if you tick that way, you know, if you tick the way that you say, I want a fix job and I'm gonna have at six, that's also perfectly fine. If you tick that way, then also there's, there's no way out. You're never gonna be happy in a, in a, in a contract work. uh, it can be really beautiful because you have that freedom. but it also, obviously you, you have to somehow also get to the output. So most of the time, I think for me, having that freedom, it gives that output. because of the talks and I change topics and, and research a bit and stuff, I got really into this whole what motivates different people to sort of go the extra mile. And I think it's a super interesting subject because I listened to a, it was a podcast, I think it was Barriers of the CEO and it was with David Brailsford. so he trains like cyclists and he's everybody listening who's about cycling and, and all of that. I, I'm not an expert. I really just listened to him and I got really into the idea of sports psychology because I think it's so interesting because when you an athlete, pushing yourself, you want to, and it's great. And, it's really interesting like how he explained it because he changed the dynamic from going of thinking about the win going of thinking about the pedal. So he has the sentence he said that is like, focus on the pedals and not the podium. because he says, the problem is when you only focus on the win. Then also the win is such a short moment. First of all, you might not get there, second if you get there, it's just a split second. And then you're having also this fall afterwards. So what, what you're gonna do, you know, once you, once you reach that, the podium, so he says, um, they got much better output, they got much better athletes by focusing on the pedal. Because I said that's the only thing you can influence as an athlete is that you having that perfect pedal stroke every time you cycle. And then if you win, it's gonna be, it's like a little plus on top, you know? But your aim wasn't the podium, it was always on the pedal stall. So it's, beautiful thing that, and so I got into like reading about the sports psychology things because I also think when you are, when you are an athlete, there's all these people they think about, like nowadays, no. They think about your nutrition, your body, your wellbeing, all of this stuff, all of the psychology. And then when we work. And when we, especially when we run companies, and I think I'm really, I'm really interested in the whole, I have a lot of friends that work in startups and you know, the exit and all of these things. I think it's exactly the same. And we do the same, but we don't, we just go for the end goal all the time. so I think this is like why I became also so obsessed with this every day because it's this idea now of the, of the pedals and that you reach it in the end. And I just find it very interesting how different people tick and what motivate them. how we also take into account that we're getting, that we're getting sick, which with an athlete we wouldn't, we wouldn't want our star athlete to, to get injured. So people really watch it. But if you're running a company, nobody watches that, like sort of a side product.

Brad Frost: yeah. It's like, it's like that that physical and, and mental health is I think a lot more front and center for an athlete where that's their, their aim. I do love that. Pedal, not podium The word is really presence. And I think that you started this conversation, I think, in a really beautiful way in saying it's like the excitement kind of comes from living a good day, a balanced day. But you've identified that that's the goal. That's, that's the goal is to live a good day,

Christine Vallaure: not for everybody.

Brad Frost: for you, well, I would, I would stay

Christine Vallaure: agree? I I could imagine

Brad Frost: very, I would agree, but I would also throw it out there to everyone that the goal ought to be for, for any human being on this planet, is to live a good day. Because I think that many people get caught in the trap of, whatever those podiums are. a lot of people say, I will be happy when I'm at that podium, right? When, when I have enough money in the bank or when I get that promotion or when I, you know, you know, buy that car or when I do this or when I accomplish that thing, then I will allow myself to, to, to be happy. And, and I think that there's psychology as well as a lot of ancient beliefs and stuff that it's like those types of things, right? Sort of banking on one day I'll be happy, it truly is that mentality of saying, what does a good day look like for, for you, right? And you're gonna have your own version of it, right? You, you, you described it beautifully. You want this, this healthy blend of fulfilling work, family time, friends It's that presence and learning how to cultivate presence and learning how to cultivate, uh, gratitude, for the day that's the, it is like focusing on the pedal is the fact that you live in a world where you have a computer screen in front of you and just, that's a miracle in and of itself. And the fact that we're able to talk across geographies and, and oceans and, uh, like it's, it's stunning. What reframing can do. And, and it is that, that the, the focus on that presence and the gratitude and the ability to just kind of say like, I'm gonna make today a good day and this is what I'm gonna shoot for and I'm gonna fall short But at the same time, like that's, that's what you're striving for is to, is to, to have a good day the results of that will, will come. And it sounds like you do some, like far future or, or near too far future planning that helps you sort of, you know, pedal in a direction, but you're aware that you're not going to get there all in one day.

Christine Vallaure: Yeah, so I think it's why I was think so amazed by, or why I really, really enjoyed this, this talk about the pedals and the podium, because it still includes the podium because I think a lot of the time when you talk about enjoying the day, and, and you know, it sounds a bit weird because it's, first of all, you need, you need to have the, the, the, the economic freedom to do so. It sounds a bit like you're just launching and, and hanging out with your friends, and that's really not what I mean, because I am, I'm a big fan of being ambitious about things, and I think there's a big difference whether you are ambitious or whether you're competitive, and I think competitive. It's also a, it's not a bad thing if you, again, if you're an athlete, if you are in a team, you have to be competitive. Otherwise, you know, you need that. But I'm, for example, I'm not competitive at all. I'm ambitious. I don't care if, if, if my neighbor has a bigger house or a bigger car, but I care that I live in a place I like you know, it's not like I'm, I'm living in a little hut and I am just living of, of love and, and painting pictures, um, which is also great, but if that's your lifestyle.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: so I, I really wanna bring back the, um, the idea that by making your everyday worthwhile and focusing on that paddle, are still going, you're still keeping the possibility of the podium, but. I think that is really important because I don't wanna tell the story of just digital work and just live the happy life because for, I also think there is so much satisfaction in creating good products, creating a company that you enjoy, having a team, however you tick. You know, I like working by myself, but I also have, like, when I see with my friends, when they lead teams, like there's so much joy when they find the right place. Um, and I just think it's, it's just so easy to get lost. Um, and so I, yeah, I like, I like this idea of, of just reflecting and putting stuff in your day and not thinking that if you're taking a little bit time out of your day, that. That, that this is gonna add to the quality of your output. It's the nutrition, it's the getting the rest, it's the, you're not gonna do the race if you don't do the rest. but in work we don't do that. We're like, oh, I'm just gonna have three espresso in the morning and I'm just gonna sleep five hours. And because like, I'm just gonna push through. It's like, yeah, you can do it if sometimes you need to, you have a deadline and you, you do it. But if, if that's your, your work routine, then I think that's, that, that might cause you trouble down the road. And, but we, we still glorify that. for me it's more like keep the ambition keep the drive and keep all of that, that energy. I really like high energy people. It like really fascinates me. But it doesn't mean that you have to ditch all the rest, you know?

Brad Frost: Yeah. I, I love so much of, of what you just said there. I, I really love that distinction between ambition and, and competition and that a little bit of competition I think can be healthy.

Christine Vallaure: Are you competitive or ambitious? Which one are you, Brett,

Brad Frost: a a hundred percent ambitious. I am the, one of the least competitive people I, I know.

Christine Vallaure: hear, I they play, sometimes I play like people play card, like we play cards with like kids or something. And my friends become incredibly ambitious about winning Monopoly. but it's also great because when you play like this and you see that you have kids on the table, they love those ambitious adults because they They take the game seriously. And I'm just like, I'm just like, can we just sit there and have like, I don't know, can we ever drink and just not play a board game? uh,

Brad Frost: I, I'm a big fan of like, no, no, no, no. I like, I think, I think that there's, that collaboration versus competition I, I think is something that, that is, is such a, a really interesting thing. And they're not necessarily a hundred percent at odds. With each other. I think that it's a lot of how you sort of balance things, right? I think that there's, you know, you could, you could talk about many, many, many creative partnerships that have, you know, the world has benefited from, uh, some, some healthy competition, uh, between some ambitious people. So, so it can be a good motivator. Uh, I do think though, too many things get positioned as these kind of zero sum games, right? If, if I win in business, that means you have to lose. And I reject that entirely. Like, entirely. I think that, and, and that's, that's really I think at the, the heart of creativity is to sort of see opportunities and to not see things in a zero sum way. Uh, but rather to sort of find inventive ways where more people can, live and, and play and, and exist, right? It's, it's, oh, here are these paths, here are these well-worn paths? Well, what if we make a new path? And that is, I think, really exciting and, and kind of rejects that idea of it's like, here's these people that are doing similar things and they are my competitors and I must win. And if I win, that means that they lose. If they win, that means that I lose, that's kind of been one of the, the most fun things for me as I've kind of like really gone out on my own, is to, uh, explore and actually like live, uh, what does it look like to live in kind of a, a post competition world I really love how you're talking about kind of preserving that ambition while sort of shedding a lot of that, competitive nature of it, because that stuff tends to distract. I, I, I see that as, as generally negative energy or has the, the really easy potential to spill over into negative territory where you're, you're all of a sudden saying, oh, in order for me to win you, you need to lose. And, and I just think that there are very, very, very few things that actually are, zero sum games. I.

Christine Vallaure: for me it's difficult with the, I'm just thinking if there is examples. I mean, in sports if you, you know, if you're playing for one team, the other one has to lose, and I think it's probably somewhere in life as well. But I think it's more in a, if you building larger companies and you really need a huge market share in order to maintain your company, then I understand that. But that's just nothing I'm interested in. And it's just absolutely, I don't, I don't, I like niche market. Like the, you know, the small agile thing, which I think is the same you do. And so I think it's just such a beautiful place to operate because I mean, we have it now and we meet at conferences and then I, everybody I admired, I, I now, it was so great because I started conferences I think three, three or four years ago, and everybody I admired from afar I've now met. and it's so great because you also think have this admiration and you look at them and you, and then suddenly you, you meet those people and all of them, you know, if I meet, I mean for me it's more like course creation directly. So it's like someone like Molly, someone like Joey Banks, like sort of, sort of that crowd, like Pablo Stanley, Leon are doing like the exactly the same topics that I do and. And you meet them and they're just absolutely brilliant and you get along with them and it's, it's not even that we're swapping ideas because we still operate in niches, but you also notice we, we, we operate in different niches and, and I mean, you do stuff with Molly and then I do, I promote Molly's courses even though I could probably. people off. But for some stuff, she's just better than me. and then she sends people over when they need other stuff that I do. So, and, and it, it's, for me, it's more like meeting those people, um, rather than swapping one-to-one business ideas. It's just the, the energy you have because all of them are really ambitious and they're really into the craft they're doing, and they have such a high standard of craft and such a high standard of, of producing. So, and that is what really motivates me when I'm like, wow. Like I, I know these people and, uh, they're like, some of them we can really call my friends by now. And, um, and that's more sort of, it's like, like sort of this little, this little side universe. And actually it was, it was really nice this year at config, There was a talk, uh, on the main stage and it was, uh, Jeremy Hin who does the severance, uh, stuff, he didn't even know what Figma was, but you know, he does like movies and so he came and he was like, I'm just doing this thing. And then he was on stage and he was like, I really like being here because I always feel like I'm, you know, he is very creative doing these sets. And so he is like, like I always feel like I'm a misfit and this feels like a big conference for misfits. And I think it's exactly how it feels because you are always a bit, you know, whenever I worked in companies and I worked for like, sort of the traditional, you know, when you're in Germany you work for like the car companies and all that, and I'm always, always a bit of the. Sort of, yeah, you do great stuff and you are really into your work, but you never sort of play at this level. And then suddenly you meeting those people that make a living and that live that stuff. And I think it's just very inspiring and I'm doing the stuff I do because I saw them doing it and I'm like, oh, this is actually a job. and it's, I can just encourage everybody to find these, this little, this little universe for yourself, what you are into, but I really like sort of when people are really into it, and it doesn't mean that they're intense, it just means they have a really high energy and interest in what they're doing Doesn't mean they're

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah, it's like that, that it's. Exuberance. Right. And, and it is, it is infectious and that's the show is. And, and whether, I don't see yourself that way or not, I could spot a fellow traveler a mile away and that's what the show, that's what the show is. But, and, and, and I love how you're describing it, which is, there's this admiration and there's this like understanding that it's like, oh, these people are, are exuberant and enthusiastic and inspiring and passionate, and I. Am that way as well, and I can kind of draft off of their wake, uh, in the same way that you can deliver that for, for other people. And I think that that's really, I think, kind of the spirit of this podcast is I, that I think that everyone looks to people like you and a lot of the other guests, uh, on the show and stuff for that, like, for like, here's this energy, here's this enthusiasm, here's this general sense of, of ambition and optimism and positivity that I think a lot of people are, are starved for, unfortunately. And, and I think that everyone has the, the capacity for. That energy for that creativity, for that outlook. Um, I think that it comes easier to some, like there's just genetic factors, no doubt at play. There's environmental factors at play and stuff like that, but, but really at the end of the day, do you have this, this excitement and you could feel it in, in, in other people. that admiration, I think you're, you're describing it very well, is like that admiration for other people's enthusiasm. you can wield that as a tool to, to go back to your own work, whether they're operating in exactly the same field as you, or they're making movies or they're a musician or, or they're just like somebody else doing whatever they're doing in life. You can feel that energy. And that's like a really cool skill to deVallaurep.

Christine Vallaure: Like for me it's conferences. No, because when you go out and you, it's like the place where I meet most people, like-minded people, but I, know how, how, how you feel about that because you've been doing that for so much longer. if you still get there, because I also imagine that at some point, like now I did so many in a row, and at some point you also get tired. I mean, maybe you're right. It doesn't even have to be that, it doesn't have to be someone who works in exactly the field. Sometimes you just go for dinner and someone just has a, it's just, just, I'm not very esoteric, but you know, in the end it is a sort of a energy and, um, I notice when you, when you just go for, for what attracts you, then it, it's, you usually get that, you usually get that energy back and it's just really nice. It's when you go home, you know, sometimes when you had this moment, you had a bad day, and you go and it's just a five minute conversation with someone that you randomly meet on the street you haven't seen for a while, I think it's why I like living in Spain so much because everybody's just so positive. You go Today, I went to buy some fish and they were just, they were just so excited about the fish they were selling me, and I was like, I really, I love that when you go to a market and, and you know you, because you can go in and you can do any job. and, and you know, I also understand that some jobs that they're very hard. And, and again, I live in a very privileged situation here with my laptop. Um, but, and sometimes you, um, you just go in the shop and they're just so into that thing. And then I was like, how, I don't know how to do that fish. And then the lady next to me gives me sort of recipe ideas and then the, the guy selling it, it's like, no, but you, you just do a bit bit butter and this and, and, and, and I'm just like, whenever I have that, Then I, I get really into it. And when I was at uni for example, I was working always, I was working part-time like in, in bars and, and and restaurants and stuff. And it's just like, it can be re it's really good fun. And as soon as you see that people are really into it, like there's some people, they wanna make the perfect cocktail and they're just so into it and they just wanna be, it just has to, they're like, ah. And then there's just some people they, you know, they have to do the hours because they want the cash, which is also fine sometimes in life. It is about Um, but if you can manage to twist it or to go somewhere where you like it, then for example, I could have worked in a, like a lot of people that worked in uni, what they did, like call centers and stuff. And, um, I think I would've just been really, I would've earned more when I would've been really bored. And so I just worked there because again, there was music, there was that sort of spirit and especially people working in like sort of the. Service industry, it's, they're usually really into it. You know, when they, when they run their bar, when they run the restaurant, and I think it shows, and I, whenever I go somewhere and someone's very excited about, like, stuff you didn't even think you could be excited about. I'm like, yeah, that.

Brad Frost: I, like, I do think, and it's like I know that we, we have been focusing on, this professional angle to this, but, but I think that, uh, you were saying you're, you're not esoteric or, or as esoteric, but it's like, it, it is that energy and it is the people who can find the excitement in fish and the people who are just there. And it's almost like this, this, I'm here anyways.

Christine Vallaure: Yeah.

Brad Frost: might as well, I. fun and, and be interested in this because, uh, you know, 'cause otherwise I could just be, my head could be elsewhere and I could be miserable and I could be thinking about all the things that I'm not doing and and stuff. And so it really is in those, I think those, those truly mundane experiences and those, those everyday things, not, not everything is launching a book or launching a course or all of these like professional accolades or all of like these big sexy projects and stuff like that. So much of it has to do with just, again, living that, that good day and making the decision to say. I am going to choose to be interested in this. I'm going to find fun ways to, um, find satisfaction in sometimes even like boring things. I bet you any money, if you were to work at that call center, you would've had a blast. You would've found the ways to, to connect with the human beings

Christine Vallaure: is

Brad Frost: on the other end.

Christine Vallaure: at. I can tell you. And the funny thing is, there were the one that most, I'm not gonna say which one was, I think the job where I got most money, it was that I just had to leave. I, I, I, and there was people that, they were super happy. There. Again, I think it's that everybody notices the way they tick, which is beautiful. Otherwise, we would all wanna do the same job. Um, but there like, I was just, I can't deal with politics at work. Like I really cannot handle it. I get, I get depressed. I, I'm just like, something inside me just goes when there is politics. And titles and lattice, and it doesn't work for me. Um, it Yeah. And, but there is people that are really good over it. It's almost like they're playing a little game and, and then, you know, it And then, and then I'm like, great, you, you do it. You take the pay. It's, it's a shame because I would've wanted to keep the paycheck and just do something else with it. But, yeah, I think it's, it, it's, it's very individual, but for me that is like, there is definitely environments. I think there's a lot of, it is intrinsic. A lot of of it is that your day. And I think I always try to do that and like, I'm, what you say? I'm here anyways. and uh, but there is also environments that where you just don't fit. And when you just don't fit in, then you just, you also have to leave. and you have to find an alternative because otherwise you, you, it is just really not good for you. And I see that with, with people that get stuck in places because of the, you know, you have the mortgage and the kids and the, and the blah and it's, it's, I, I see how, how much pressure it is. it's, it's tricky. It's, it's very hard when you're stuck in the wrong place.

Brad Frost: Yeah. And, and, and I think that you're, you're touching on some really important things, which is ultimately know thyself, right. And know what turns you on, what gives you enthusiasm and excitement and Yeah. If you are a. You know, hyper social person that thrives in being in that thing, then maybe don't go work in a field by yourself, uh, for instance, and vice versa, right? If you're not, in excited about, In my experience, not a ton of people have done explicit work on that and, and sort of have arrived at that stuff. And, and maybe we could pick it at that, but, but so yeah, so there's the. There's the know thyself thing, and then there's the, the, the constant kind of reevaluation of here's me in the world and here's this environment that I'm in, and is this compatible? Am I, you know, finding more positive things than negative things in this, uh, you know, and not just day to day. 'cause obviously every day is different, but it's like if you are able to sort of like see a, a pattern or a trend of, of, ugh, this is, this is not serving me. Uh, overcoming that, that pressure, that extrinsic pressure, mortgage kids, et cetera, uh, like those are very real things and, and what people have to, to, to deal with. But at the same time. Again, you, you don't get that time back. Like, I, I think that that's like the, the one thing that, that I've really learned that just like you've, you said you've seen people get stuck. I think that that's definitely been my experience as well. And it's just like, yeah, it, you can make two and two equal four in a lot of ways. And again, some of those ways can be quite inventive as, as we've been discussing here, and there's risk involved, uh, in sort of making moves. But like, do you really want to subject yourself to, oh, 15 more years of this, and then I can finally get out of this place and I'll have, you know, when I get to this place, I will be happy. And there it is again. You know, it's like, it, it, it, it really is that. Like how do you turn that attitude on its head and back into how we started the conversation, which is have, have a good day. Like how, how do you take that and turn it around?

Christine Vallaure: um, but I mean, I also think there is, um, another way also to see it because I have friends that have said, I, my work isn't, that's not the place where I get my fulfillment. My family, or, uh, is my hobby. And then they say, well, I just get a work that I enjoy. That I'm fine with. I a very valuable way, you know, that you, that you do that, that you say, this is, for me, it's very tricky because I, I am my work and I like being my work. I identify maybe too much with my work. That's another podcast. But, um, but if you, I think it's also also nice if you can do that, but, and then you have other things, but then you have to be, if you're clear about it, you know, and then it's, I I wouldn't recommend that you then go for a job that takes us up 15 hours of your day, maybe. But, you know, there are some of my friends that work part-time and they, they just say, well, I am being a mom. That's what fulfills me. And I think that's really great. Can be really, really great as well. Or dead as well. I see that less,

Brad Frost: I think you're onto something there, in, in that it's like, and there's also these things are not static, right? Uh, you becoming a mom fundamentally changes your priorities in life, right? And cha and changes that. Yeah. And so,

Christine Vallaure: things. You know, how much time you're having a day and, and, and how much because I, I'm a, I'm a love being in control. I control, I'm, I'm, I'm a big fan of control. But you know, you, you, you've got, you've got kids where it's like, just control just goes out of the window. And, uh,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: good learning, but now, now remember what I wanted to say with what you say with it has to feel good. I think I, I want to write that somewhere. That is like, when you look at, with work, you're gonna have moments where it's hard, where there is problems, there is stuff you gotta go through. So you, it's not about just ditching it as soon as it feels bad. Um, but always like, if you look at the entire year, have you been around 80% fine? Uh, 80. Can you say for 80, around 80%. Rough feeling. I'm feeling, I'm feeling good. Maybe 70. Whatever. You know, you pick your number that you need. And I think it's for everything. This is for work. This is for friendships, this is for relationships as well. You know, you're not gonna, it's not gonna be amazing all the time, but if it's all the time really terrible, maybe you, you, you wanna have a conversation. And it's the same with work. If you, if you go there all the time and, and, but there, we just take it for granted. We're just like, because I think we have this narrative of this is what it's like, work is like hard and terrible and it's like, that's really sad because work, I actually at work when someone asked me for my hobbies the other day and I was like, oh, it's like sports and, and work and work. And I really, I really work is my, I really enjoy, like mo there's sort of stuff I don't, you know, I have to do, but I, it's really what I, I would do that stuff if you, if if tomorrow I win the lottery, I would, I would keep on doing that stuff. really, I'm thoroughly interested in, in those topics and, and you obviously would put a twist on it, but, did you, I think you posted that once there's the calendar with your lifetime.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Christine Vallaure: the, they got crossed off. And there is a really cool thing there is from, he did a clock. So you put, it goes backwards. So you put your life expectancy and you can actually calculate your life expectancy. When you put, there's a, if you Google it, there's like a life expectancy calculator. So you put in your lifestyle where you live, um, your diet, your ex like it, it asks this like sort of 10 minutes of questions about you. And it calculates your life expectancy, which I think mine is like 87 or something like that. and so then you can put it, then there's a little backwards, uh, clock. So you have a little clock on your desk and it calculates, it shows you how much time you have left. uh, it's really scary. And it's really funny because the reaction of people is like, I'm like, this is so cool. I love it. And most, there's a lot of people that they're like, this is horrible and this is like, this is really terrible. And it's scary, huh? Because it feels. Infinite the time you've left, but you know,

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Christine Vallaure: you're like,

Brad Frost: but

Christine Vallaure: I thought I went. happen? That that should not have happened.

Brad Frost: it co it comes for all of us in a, in a lot of cases, sooner than we'd like. And, and that's, I think, one of the most humbling parts of it all. And, and back to, I, I feel like that the, the theme to keep, you know, I feel like you, you perfectly articulated it at the very right out of the gate, is just like having a good day. And that balanced day between doing fulfilling work, spending time with the people you love. Diet, exercise, just living like a, you know, a decent existing Yeah. But like, but it is, it's like those fulfilling activities, right? And because banking on that future payoff, you said it earlier, it's like, you know, sometimes the, the work sucks or sometimes you gotta roll up your sleeves and do it. Sometimes it's, it's, it's not fun. Um, and, and a lot of times that's just what you gotta do in order to, to make good things happen. But at the same time, I think that there is that narrative that you said where it's just like, work is. Supposed to be miserable, and then when you're done with work and you, and you retire, it's just hammocks and margaritas and, and all of that stuff, which is also bullshit, right? Like it's so, so it's this fun, these two false narratives. And I think that you've been picking at it, you're like, I'd be doing this stuff anyways. Even in my free time, I took a, I took a three month sabbatical and I was wildly productive. it's just because of how I'm wired. Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: think like I get more done and because I don't, I don't sort of kill myself Monday to Friday. I'm still up for a bit of work on a Saturday and Sunday. So I also read about my work and I would like listen to podcasts and it's because, I mean, again, it's a luxury. I'm completely into the, the stuff that there's so much happening, you know, with like technology and things that to research. But I have to also say, um, um, sort of, uh, how do you say, um. Contradicting my own, my own words. I have seen people that retire and they're incredibly happy. and they did the whole treadmill and then retire. And then I have seen people that, you know, did the whole, I'm just gonna ditch family relationships and everything, and I'm gonna go all in and then I'm gonna have to exit. And then I have seen that work as well. it is a feasible road that you can do. And I think also some people really enjoy to have that in themselves, that they wanna go all in and they wanna go really, really, um, you know, they're like young, I wanna do this one. I wanna feel the success, but I also think it's fine. It's for me personally. Um, and it took me a long time to realize, because I think, again, this comes back to this, when you are an ambitious person, you do sometimes look at this, and this feels like this is the. Poster. Perfect of ambition. No building something, getting that funding, like making it big, uh, getting that recognition because you obviously get a lot more press, you get a lot more attention if you had the, the, the, the huge numbers and all of that. so for me, it, it, it took quite a while to, to notice that I'm not cut out to do that. and that there's nothing wrong with it. And it doesn't mean that I have to ditch my ambition, that it still means I can do thi do things in, in other ways. And that it's relevant. You can earn well, it doesn't mean that, you know, because we also have this thing. If you don't do, if you don't go here, then you are down here. that's not know, there's a lot of space in between. So I also find it very important to always say this, when I also wanted to do the talks about entrepreneurship and building and, and building your own product and having this joy in building, you can still earn money. There is nothing shameful about earning money about, you can say, I wanna, I wanna. Become super rich. It's like, if you wanna do that, you know, you probably have to look at your strategy and how you do that. Um, but there is it. It doesn't mean that you're gonna be, because we still have this, the poor artist in our head, and it, it's, especially with today's technology and all the stuff you can do, you can just, you can just twist things a little bit, you know, to, to make them work for you.

Brad Frost: that's precisely it. Startup founder, abandoning life and, and going all in and getting the hockey stick in the exit. As I've talked to those people myself, I Oh, it, it is, it is. And it's not to say, you know, back to athletes, all right. Like there really is something about, it's like, I'm going,

Christine Vallaure: they

Brad Frost: I'm going right. But, uh, but a lot of the times I think that it, it truly does come at a cost. And when you look at those athletes that once their career is over through, through retirement or a lot of times, like through injury or whatever, they're like, oh god. And it's, it's like the void, you know what I mean? And so, so it's not to say that amount of focus or whatever isn't, isn't necessarily, uh, should be avoided at all costs. But I really love what you're saying is that there are a lot of ways to do this. And I think that there's a, a few predominant narratives, uh. Here's the hockey stick of growth and that's what constitutes success as a, as a business or here's what a successful career or a successful life looks like. And it really is about, I think, rejecting those narratives as the only viable narratives. And instead saying, well, what, what exactly would I like my life and, and career and, and everything else to, to look like? I can guarantee you there are ways, you've mentioned it kind of throughout and I want to pick at it. You're like, oh yeah. Like I realize like this is, you know, my privilege and this is our, you know, field and we're really like lucky to be here. I, I truly believe that this is applicable to, to any person that there's not, like, obviously we're very lucky. Obviously we all have like our, our privileges, but also our, our disadvantages as well. But it's, it's really about recognizing where we're at, where we're coming from and where we're trying to go, that is applicable to anyone irrespective of their field, their industry, their, their, you know, privileges or disadvantages in life. It has to do with knowing yourself, figuring out like what you're trying to accomplish in this life, and then setting out to, to do it like, and, and to get closer to that and to peel away some of the, the gross. Parts of it, and to do more of the stuff that you enjoy doing and, and having more of, of those good days. It's, it's not an all or nothing thing. It's not a fantasy. And I think as you've been sort of saying throughout is, is like, yeah, it's, it's not perfect. And we all have hard days and we all have like good and bad days, but like, I get, I, I, I get sensitive whenever it's like, oh, like this is for, for people like us, uh, that, that, that this is exclusive to. And I, and I hear that a lot because people will be like, well, well Brad, of course you can say this. I'm just a person sa same as you. And I think that like my, what I, what I want to pick at with this show and, and just in general is to sort of like help more people. Take that kind of often very self-defeating out of, out of the, the equation. I think a lot of people do say things like that in order to say, I'll just be over here and be miserable and resent the people that I see, uh, you know, going for it. And I think that it's like, I, I, I'm really interested in helping people go, you're slinging fish. You can,

Christine Vallaure: Yeah.

Brad Frost: can be be doing this. Like you, you, you can be at a place where you wake up excited, you do your fulfilling work, you're sharing recipes with your customers. You're coming home to your family. You're, you're putting your own fish on the table. Uh, absolutely positively. Possible for people, and that it's like, it really is these, these kind of like self defeatist types of attitudes that I see being very, very pervasive. And there's a lot of stickiness to those ideas. And social media landscape doesn't help. Putting people on pedestals doesn't help, uh, certain professions. Uh, the startup founders, the, these, these brilliant minds, these solo minds, all of, like the, the, the, the culture that we live in doesn't help any of this. Well, I, I couldn't be that right? I am, I'm but a lowly person here and I, I call bullshit on everything.

Christine Vallaure: I, I agree with you. Um, to, I think there's a lot of meritocracy involved. Uh, and I think that's true. I still obviously do think it's like where, you know, I had access to an education. I, to, uh, learn English because my, my parents would foster this so I can make courses. And I think there's a lot of that in there that, that I don't wanna say, you know, this was all, this was all me because there I had a, I had a good head start, you know,

Brad Frost: Yes,

Christine Vallaure: to be taken into account. Um,

Brad Frost: it does.

Christine Vallaure: what I also, what I fully agree with you is the whole thing that people go like, oh, you were just lucky. And it's like, no, because the luck thing you, that is true. There is luck that you meet the right people that I met. Uh, vitally and Caris and all of them, you know, that said, I think we should speak, but that only happened because I wrote a weird, nerdy article that they enjoyed. So in order to get the luck, you don't know where the, the luck is sort like, sort of flying around. And so you've gotta go outside and you've gotta be ready and you've gotta be prepared and you've gotta get your stuff. You, you have to show, first of all, with your content, who you are, what you're interested in. and I think then, um, you have to be ready when luck knocks, because otherwise you, you know, it's, it's, and it is involved and yeah, I see it as something that's like, sort of circling around and you never know when it's gonna like pass you, but when it passes you have to be there and you'd be like, ah, I'm ready.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: it's just gonna fly to the next person. So, so there is, it's a big mix of a lot of things and, but I, what I really like is what you say, it's a, um, because again, when we think about this, waking up excited is we think about waking up excited in, in, in everything sorted out and falling into a successful. Way, which how we define or how, how society defines it. And it's, it's more the other thing. It's more the having pride in, in, in all the little things you as

Brad Frost: It's more the, it's more the personal fulfill. Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: And, just being, being, I mean, I have a friend, a friend of mine said it the other day. I had a friend who was cleaning windows during, in university for a side job, and he became so obsessed with the best window cleaning technique that he had it all figured out and he had all these big YouTube videos and he had like, was like. Killing the window cleaning business at some And that's, I it's just really cool. and yeah, actually did a, managed to sort of optimize the window cleaning and, and, and make a whole art of it. And he was very proud of it. And, you know, people would, so it's, it's, it's um, that that's the sort of, I think that's the sort of spirit now that we, we agree we're talking about like whatever little job they give you or the person that's study can sell ice cream and you can be the star on the beach or you can just

Brad Frost: Oh my God, yes. I mean, that's, that's a great job.

Christine Vallaure: know?

Brad Frost: Yeah. But it, but it's like, I, I think that that's, that's true. And, and, and talking about privilege is always like a really fascinating thing because it's like.

Christine Vallaure: a slippery slope as well, you know?

Brad Frost: Well, well, it is a, it's, it's a third rail thing, but thankfully I don't care because it's like, I, I think that there is a lot of nuance there because I think that whenever people talk about privilege and meritocracy and stuff like that, we're often again, sort of looking at these certain narratives and it's like, this is what constitutes success. And oh, wouldn't, you know it, you know, anybody can, can get to that point. It's like, no, no, no. Where you live and what you've had exposure to is going to impact whether or not you become the world's foremost, uh, biological engineer and, and, you know, dealing with, uh, you know, crazy stuff like that, or building bridges, or building digital products or being the world's most authority on fish. like all of that has to do with, with your, your privilege and, and your life experience and stuff. But again, like just how we started this conversation about living a good life, I think that that's, that's really the, the, the metric, the success metric that I think is truly available to anyone, irrespective of specific privileges and disadvantages of which everyone has different and, and different shaped terrain in that department. But I think like that the outcome right, is around how do you move closer to what you described at the, at the top of this conversation, which is how do you get to a point. Where you're able to do fulfilling work, spend time with the people you love, et cetera. Those things are accessible to, to everyone. And I think that what I've seen is that so many people going, oh yeah. Like, well, of course you all can do that because you know you're Brad or you're Christine, and you know, and I'm just over here doing this. It's like, it's like, no, no, no, you can get to that place and you really should strive for getting to that place because to, to kind of, again, be in this like kind of lofty like far future, uh, you know, maybe one day I, I'll get there, or, or, oh, this, that road isn't available to me. It's like, hmm. Like maybe, maybe so. But you have roads available to you and it's worth exploring what those are.

Christine Vallaure: And I think maybe if you flip it around, if you say, you, uh, have that in my talk actually in the, in the one as a, as a finished slide, as a one of the last slides where it says, if you have the possibility to shape your work and your career, then use it because that's the privilege. So I think it's more this way around that a lot of people, they have that privilege, it's available to them. And, and then it's a little contradictive to to, to not use it. Um, because it is possible and you have to take a leap. But it's, it's sometimes it's, it's not as crazy that leap as you would it's really worth the could always go back to contract job if you've been there, if you've had your experience. And which is also why I feel really strongly of people when they wanna build a product, when they run something, it's like, you can do it on the side. Just take, you know, just

Brad Frost: Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: it because it's, it's, it's not as crazy as you think it is. It's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: to, to do it.

Brad Frost: Uh, that's good. I'm glad that you're, you're giving people per permission to explore or even entertain ideas in their heads, and I think that that's what so many people need. So, so thank you for, for doing that. a couple things before we wrap up. you've kind of like alluded to it, uh, a few times, but like, where could people, find you and, and you're sort of talking about your, your talk in your, in your book. You wanna plug that real quick?

Christine Vallaure: Yeah. the best way to connect is, uh, here is my name, Christine Valor. Um, if you, if you look me up on LinkedIn, this is the, the most social media channel I'm most, most active and put most stuff. And then you can find me on moon learning.io and you can find the solo, it's the solo.io. And then, yeah, if you just Google it, you're gonna see all the talks and that's, they're also up for free. And, um, always, always excited to hear that. I mean, the nicest thing is when people, um, look at these things and then they send me, I, I built something, I made something. that's

Brad Frost: that's, that's incredibly fulfilling and rewarding. It's like you can, you can make a finite number of things, but you're empowering other people to, to make things on their own. That's great.

Christine Vallaure: well. So let's see how that goes. I keep you posted

Brad Frost: That's, that's good. That's how we do it. Yeah. and then the last question is, um, what music do you want more people to know about? It could be

Christine Vallaure: that's your field. no secret tips for you. I wish I was a little more, more, exciting with my music. I love Jamie xx. Lately, I've been to JVXX concert a few months back, and it was the best concert I've ever been to. Like, I was just dancing the, I was like, oh my God. He's just, and I think he's the one, he's a good example of all we talked about. He comes on stage, you know, he's like big. He comes on stage. There's a DJ before him, and he just goes, hi. And just, there's no intro, there's no, he just, just, when you hear interviews with him, he's a bit like, it feels always like, he's like, can you just leave me alone and listen to my music? Like, I, I put it all in there. Like, just, and I just think he, uh, he's just, I, I love it. And, um, my, my, my German, uh, uh, worried, anxious soul loves listening to a lot of Depeche mode once in a while, so

Brad Frost: Heck yeah. Uh, beautiful. Amazing. All right, well thank you Christine. Thanks for coming on the show. This was a lot of fun. So, yeah. All right. More soon. Take care. Thank you.

Christine Vallaure: Bye. Thank you.